[Kuromaku's Dojo]

Diffuse light streams in through the ricepaper shoji screens which enclose this large room. Thick cotton-wrapped tatami mats cover the polished pine floor. Wooden weapon racks are set against the walls filled with assorted weapons, both rattan and metal.

Also in the room: Lord Ruffelin (seated), Lady Kythyn, Lord Pyranth (seated), Lord Geijon (kneeling), Lord Heindel (seated), Lord Dalimar (prone), Lord Thrudh (seated), Lord Jafirnn (seated), Lord Kerl (seated), Lord Lurch (seated), Lady Titaniia (seated), GameMaster Lord Kuromaku (seated)

Obvious exits: none.

You see Lord Kuromaku Hikoemon the Giantman Warrior.
He appears to be in his 80's, has short, straight black hair, dark eyes, and black skin.
He is in good shape.
He is wearing a crystal amulet, a blackened mesh belt, a gold ring, a dark hood, a dark silk satchel, some dark trousers, an ancient enruned urnon key, a crafter's apron, a large sack, a jade-inlaid sheath, and a dark shirt.

Kuromaku says, "The last 2 weeks has seen a noticable increase in whining on the Boards. By us. And apparently, some of us think that I'm doing a poor job. I take my job seriously, and if I'm doing something wrong, let's correct it. We have a number of valid concerns as a class, especially in regards to balance. It's time to deal with them. Simple whining and complaining gets us nothing. Common sense, valid arguments, and unity gets us balance. You can choose your path. If there's anyone here who doesn't want to help, or isn't willing to carry on constructive comment, let me know. I'll put you back. Anyone? Right."

Cryheart appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku says, "OK. Groundrules. No speaking unless recognized. No shuffling around and stuff. It's the same thing. If you disagree with something, raise your hand, and you'll get your chance. If you have to go, no offense. Let me know, and I'll send you back. This won't be the last time we do this. OK. Subject for discussion is how we get parity as a class, specifically in combat. Being "Useful" isn't an issue in my eyes. We'll get that. Heindel."

Heindel says, "Parity in combat, good word. I sort of like the ideas about warrior maneuver attacks being implemented. Damangherik's been posting some interesting things on this subject. I'll keep it short till we start narrowing down after tossing alot of ideas out, but maneuver attacks and fixing weapons are a big start."

Kuromaku asks, "Dalimar?"

Dalimar asks, "I haven't been reading the boards, although I'm aware there is some concern about the new cleric spells, but what are the current concerns that have drawn us here?"

Kuromaku says, "Specifically: We are screwed. I am a rookie GM who clearly doesn't know his place. That nothing is happening for the betterment of the class. That a minor shift in AS for clerics is the worst thing that ever happened to us."

Dalimar asks, "Is that the entirety of it, or is there more?"

Kuromaku says, "That specifically seems to be the case. That we aren't viable, the best in combat, and as such, people are fed up."

Kythyn asks, "Are ye aware that Mhorigan has said that he is reviewing a proposal for manuever attacks from Ophion?"

Kuromaku says, "I don't agree with the previous statements, by the way. Yes, I'm aware of it. I'm also aware of the fact that they'll benefit rogues more than us."

Kythyn asks, "If ye want advice, will ye speak with Berr Geoff and Hexxon?"

Kuromaku says, "Any time they want."

Kythyn says, "I am not of the opinion that we are not viable. Are creature changes reviewed by the gurus?"

Kuromaku says, "No. It's a subject of some contention."

Kythyn says, "That leads to problems in perception then, pyros for example have changed subtly but affect warriors."

Kuromaku says, "It is fallacy to assume that any change in any creature doesn't affect all classes."

Kythyn asks, "Can you afford the time to regularly post on the warrior boards?"

Kuromaku says, "I think I have been, Kythyn."

Kythyn says, "Yes, but not all changes affect all classes equally."

Kuromaku says, "No. Nor will they."

Kythyn asks, "and lastly, what will be the role of warriors in repair?"

Kuromaku says, "I'd argue that casters got the shaft in the last round of critter revs. Warriors will repair better than any other class."

Kythyn says, "That may be, but we wouldn't know what other classes got."

Thrudh says, "I've heard suggestions for DF adders/multipliers. From what I can see, this would cause more problems than it would solve."

Kuromaku says, "Concur."

Thrudh says, "Same with the AS adder ideas."

Kuromaku says, "I think my Teras experiement proved that. I had a group of warriors lie down in full offense, and swung at them with a 1500AS. One of 10 dies, and that was a head crit. AS doesn't matter here."

Thrudh says, "What is with the rogue maneuvers? Why are we not getting warrior maneuvers? I hadn't heard that maneuvers were to be the province of rogues. They may be the quick fellows, but we're the masters of combat. So while they might get a nifty tumble maneuver, we'd get a mighty blow maneuver. Because of the way that the classes are set up, any 'fix' for the warriors is probably going to need to be based on multiple warriorly skills, just as Redux is."

Kuromaku says, "Rogue Gambits, as it were, will be the equivalent of Warrior Tricks. That's not the same as maneuver attacks."

Thrudh says, "Rogues and Semi's can double in CM and most warrior skills. So in order to have it based on enough to be 'warriorly' without a specific class bonus, you have to use a wide range of skills."

Kuromaku says, "I think the issue affects ALL arms users here, and that's my major point."

Thrudh says, "I don't buy into the idea that we're not viable, but I do agree that we're not the masters of combat."

Geijon says, "I agree with you. I agree with Thrudh also. We are viable as a class, but those who are warriors and who survive are proud to do so. We love being warriors. Thats our true spirit within ourselves. We may not be a rogue or a bard or a sorcy, but we take pride in ourselves. Yes, we have weaknesses and must adapt, but as to how to fix those things to, I suppose, balance us. Is why we're here? As to ideas I have none. We must first find the problems."

Kuromaku says, "Honorable Hyoko."

Hyoko says, "Thank you most kindly, honorable Lord Kuromaku. I have not read the boards lately. I do not know about any complaining. I appreciate DF redux. It has helped me immensely to hunt creatures my own age. However, if there is an area where I suffer, it is with creatures that cast magic that are my age. I cannot stand up against creatures my own age that cast fear spells, for instance, without magical help. I am much too susceptible. I do not know if this affects the other warriors or not."

Kuromaku says, "I would suspect that that's a common weakness."

Dalimar says, "If I might just a moment Kuro? I have a comment 'bout Hyoko's words. Well, most of ye haven't faced de new and improved Vvrael, lost souls and vaespilions. Dye cast fear at over 625. Needless to say, it scares even me out of my armor. Now Hyoko brings up a good point. Something I think Warriors should have is a resistance, if not near imunity to fear at older ages, perhaps something based on redux or similar. In combat its not likely we will run as we learn more. In the beginin I'd wet my pants like anyone, but no more."

Kuromaku asks, "More resistance to Spirit Based spells? Or Fear in particular?"

Dalimar says, "Hrmmm. Fear in particular, BUT, in my opinion, spirit spells are a warriors ONLY true weakness. If spells go self cast, warriors will be buried. No TD. If we could develope a resistance to spirit spells, that would greatly aid us."

Kuromaku says, "If spells go self cast, not a single caster lives. Go speak to a wizard. Ask a Bard. Sorcerers aren't bad."

Heindel says, "Pardon me Kuromaku. Spells go self cast and I'm still viable."

Kuromaku says, "Spells go self cast, and you reroll again, Jim."

Dalimar says, "We are still viable, aye, Heindel, but bait for a spirit spell. Anyways, back to what I was saying. Resistance to Fear, if not and including spirit spells of some kind, would be not only be in character, but very helpful over all."

Kuromaku says, "OK. Rto fear makes sense, and probably inversely affected by wisdom bonus."

Dalimar says, "Spirit spells, perhaps as our 'inner self' becomes stronger or something, but that's a hard pitch to the higher ups."

Kuromaku says, "Impossible pitch."

Kythyn asks, "As guru, do ye have a vision of what ye think the profession should be?"

Kuromaku says, "Uh oh. Loaded question. Yes, I do."

Kythyn asks, "Would it help if ye shared it, and then we commented on it?"

Kuromaku says, "My turn on the floor for 5 minutes. I should point out that I'm ex-Navy, and I have some pretty decent insight as to what a warrior is. And before you get too carried away, I'm a former SEAL. So shaddap. I'm not saying this to make any point except this: combat is about living, not killing, and you need to understand that to go forward. Once you get that point straight, talk all the offense you want. My version of the warrior is the person standing in the front, taking the heat for the folks who can't last longer. If I'm standing in front of a mage, and he's flinging bolts, and I'm defending him from getting crushed, who wins? WE do. If I stand there, and expect to take the heat, I expect support. It's basic combat, folks. We're armor. We last the longest. We don't always hit the hardest. We don't move the fastest. We don't cover ourselves the best. We last the longest."

Heindel says, "Sounds like a giantman warrior, Kuromaku."

Kuromaku says, "Sure, Heindel. You asked MY version. I recognize that warriors see themselves as assassins, mercs, snipers, but I always viewed rogues as the lightly armored pinpoint hunters. You want a surgical strike, call a rogue. You want a full-on, throw it all at me kinda fight, call a warrior."

Kythyn asks, "Can you translate that to game terms?"

Kuromaku says, "Sure. I go hunting with JoeWizard. He can't defend himself, not against an onslaught. Sure, one on one. Who cares? How about 10 of em. Now the wizard has to choose his target, and half of'em live, and he's toast. That's real life. Talk to an infantryman. Now, put a warrior in front. While a warrior is mixing it up with a mess of critters, a wizard is pinpoint killing them. Lemme guess, before you speak. But wizards have shell! And cone! They have it ALL! No debate. So how is that a problem with a warrior?"

Kythyn asks, "What you say today is of course not true. This would seem to imply group hunting and an engagement system. Is that something you think is achievable?"

Kuromaku says, "And yes, it speaks of an ES. Is it achievable? I damn well hope so. There IS one slated. Has been for years. The issue is backlash. An ES benefits 2 classes and harms 6, and harms them much worse than we've got it now. Picture a sorcerer HAVING to touch their MD target in a crowd of 10 critters vs. what he does now, or a wizard who must change direction to focus on other targets. One shot on the back of the head to a wizard...over. Now count class percentages. We're kinda outnumbered."

Kythyn says, "Suppose ES only worked in groups?"

Kuromaku asks, "Then what's the point? Who'd hunt in groups other than us?"

Heindel says, "I want to respond about your answer to Kythyn, though she did corner you into answering that one. If you, and I feel many of the GMs who work on things, feel that way, then there is no reason for Celtar to come out of retirement. Successfull warriors, by and large, are giantmen, ambushers, those who use alot of spells, or a combo of all three. Speed doesnt play the impact it should for the elves and hobbits. Strength does and Cps."

Kuromaku says, "Successful warriors under the current system. So tell me what the fix is, Jim. You're running in circles."

Heindel says, "True. That's why I'm patient. BTW, I feel you are doing a fine job. Never said you weren't. You're trying."

Hyoko asks, "I know that there has been discussion about the AS viability of one-handed weaponsusers. Any plans on that front?"

sit down>You sit down.

Kuromaku says, "Excuse me. Tiny, speak your piece."

Titaniia says, "Its ok. Actually, my piece is related. Firstly, I am truly beginning to see warriors as three separate classes: two-handers and polearm users, ambushers, and fools..err..OHE users who don't ambush. Anyways, what I see is that, yes, indeed, we all have issues taking enough damage, but more importantly, there is a huge disparity in our ability to actually kill things, and the OHE user really doesn't gain much by shield use like they used to. If you hit me for +60 or +300, its not gonna make all that much difference. So, what I would like to see is the issue of OHE and blunt users attack viability addressed. I know that I would give up every piece of hiding and shield skill I

have to learn two handed edged. I know most OHE users feel the same. Not all, but most. From what I understand, we can't be "fixed. If we can't ambush from hiding, and after this summer we won't be able to, right? I just see this huge underclass of warriors watching the others who trained smarter grow old. Only when we began, it wasn't a smart way to train at all."

Kuromaku says, "Smarter is relative to what the "path" is. When you change something, who knows who trained "smart? What I said was that if I had my way, you wouldn't be able to hide when in melee with a critter. And to illustrate it, I suggested thinking about a guy in plate wielding a 6-foot sword hiding in an open field while 3 critters are looking at and pounding on him. And said I couldn't, for the life of me, figure out how it is that folks figure that you can hide in plain day wearing 90 pounds of metal."

>Kerl says, "First, I'd like to reiterate what Hyoko said about appreciation for Redux and add the armor changes as well. To say that we are broken, or in horrible shape, just plain isn't true. It WAS true, but we're miles ahead of where we once were. My thanks to all who worked on that. Secondly, my biggest concern is in part what Titaniia said, that many older warriors trained how they did, because it was the ONLY way to survive. True, things change, but we've worked on this for years, and I'd hate to see that all wasted. I'm a strong proponenet of diversity as well to eliminate a fighting style is a step in the wrong direction"

Kuromaku says, "I agree. Unfortunately, if the change to become balanced comes at the cost of decreasing current viability, who wins? It's the biggest problem we all face. If this game were scrapped, and built from scratch, I can guarantee you certain things would be here and certain things would not, and that those things AREN'T is a factor of just that. The folks that are currently playing vs. the folks that will. You guys always win. And in this case, while we would be the biggest winners in a complete overhaul, again, who wants to lose a character they've played for 6 years Just because ambushing isn't worthwhile anymore? BUT, I think we can all see that ambushing--the increase of crit ranks through a simple skill--has seriously imbalanced armed combat, and turned this whole game into who ambushes. Who doesn't? And in spite of the fact that the right thing to do, the one that ALL GMs agree with, is to whack the hell out of ambush, we can't. Because all the ambushers would scream bloody murder. You guys were supposed to stop at 30. Guess what."

Geijon says, "OKs. I have alot to say, but I will condense it into one thing. The root of all evil in GS, the center of the problem. Yes, the center of the Elanthia. Yes, let's call it 'The Realism Factor. Yes, this is a fantasy world, but realistically even in fastasy there are bounds. Alright, problem with ambushers is as Kuromaku said. Who could hide in an open field? No one unless it's dark or you're an illusion. Now most warriors when they begin GS have fantasy background. In fact, everyone who plays normally does have some. Realism is very much lost in GS even compared to fantasy-genre games. A very intelligent genius, yes, genius, who reads and studies and learns spells would have to commit them to memory. Thus, how would he have time to learn weaponry? He wouldn't. That's where Warriors or rogues come in. We're protectors and even enforcers in some cases. We're heavy infantry shock troops who are in the middle of the battle. In the end it all boils down to where is the realism in things?"

Mikos suddenly fades into sight beside you.

Kuromaku says, "OK, rules apply, and he's only here waiting for someone to show. So when he's gotta run, he's gotta run."

Mikos says, "I've got a few minutes."

Dalimar says, "OK, I have a few things to ask/say. Dis may take a few mins. Repairs. I was told they may or may not be implemented. What is your take on it, and who decides?"

Mikos says, "I'm sure repairs will be implemented. It's a capability that's been considered since Breakage was seen as coming back in."

Dalimar says, "Aldrek said they may not. Rather, he said IF they were. So don't quote me. So that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Second, with breakage, since we get hit harder and more often and live with redux, our gear is gonna go poof very easily. Specifically, for instance, I am constantly hit for 200-300 plus from anything in the Rift, since they swing at over 550 to 700."

Mikos says, "My understanding is that breakage will be tested and balanced for more than two months before any of it is implemented. Please don't expect any solid answers on how breakage will balance at this point. It's a complex issue, and we're not in control of breakage implementation."

Dalimar says, "My concern there is, I don't want my good armor going poof because of it. Redux in that case would hurt me, but at my age I can't do anything about being hit. Not enough spells in the game. Believe me, I've tried. Lastly, I have a solution to the problem of AS/DS, but it may or may not be viable. It's been talked about for a long time, but the basic problem is training. Other classes can train like us, so we get no real edge. 2 ways to solve that would be: either allow us to triple, and lower the cost, or increase the bonus we get for our ranks. Only possible one was make it 5,4,3,2, and stay at 2. One possible one was if we have a higher AS, it allows us to parry. That helps our DS issue, and I can tell you, contrary to what Tani says, shield really does help, especially when you parry."

Kuromaku says, "Dalimar, it's a good point, but since we have Mikos for a few minutes, let's try to stay on forging a sec."

Lurch grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Mikos says, "Those means of adjusting the situation have been discussed, Dalimar. I don't know if any real change has been decided on, though."

Dalimar says, "Basic AS is what's needed. It help both AS and DS. Parrying is our ability, eespecially with Warrior tricks, stance prefection. We rarely parry cause we don't have the DS. Give us the AS, and we can. I had to in elementals. Had to use magic to boost my AS to survive, but I lived. Wasn't 'nough magic to help, so my skills had to compensate, and they did, mostly. But that's my opinion."

Heindel says, "Weapons do need to be fixed--one-handers in particular, Kuromaku. The weapons <rapiers, estocs, etc.> themselves just not the skill. OHE. But I think that's being worked on by Mikos and others if I've read those posts correctly? Since the deICEing many weapons haven't worked decently. Care to comment on this? <perfect that Mikos is here now, btw, for this one><G>. Tani reminded me of that question, one that Robert and others also have wondered about for some years."

Mikos says, "I haven't looked at any changes to OHE, because OHC and PA's are in such bad need of fixing. OHE at least has more variety to pick from than any of the other weapon skills."

Heindel says, "Mostly its a point of using the falchion or the claidhmore though for OHE and two-hander."

Mikos says, "Once I get back to working on weapons, I doubt any OHE changes will happen before OHC and PA's get some attention, but then I know that Aldrek is interested in working on weapons, so things may happen sooner than I expect."

Kuromaku says, "OK, some of the things that I've proposed for forging, so that I can get smacked down by the guy in charge of it in front of my friends. I proposed Smelting, which would allow for folks to melt down items and reclaim metals. We're OK with that? I'm proposing changes so that forging is a series of skills, not one skill. I think that one skill for forging is kind of limiting."

Mikos says, "Well, not two. Right now it's crafting and forging."

Kuromaku says, "Shaping, smelting, assembly, repair, adjustment. Eventually, we hope strengthening, lightening. These all make sense. Mikos? Opinion?"

Mikos says, "Hmmm, I'd have to give it some thought. I can see the differentiation, but I wouldn't want it to become too cumbersome."

Kuromaku says, "Agreed. I think we probably need a "device" for each skill, or certain skills affect success on certain "machines."

Mikos says, "I know the amount of time invested in crafting and forging. I don't know that parallel curves would be worthwhile for each skill. That'd make for some characters living out their lives in a workshop."

Kuromaku says, "True. As opposed to living in the Guild? Career choice is a career choice."

Mikos nods to Kuromaku.

Kerl asks, "Would this then mean that weapon repair would not be a separate skill, but would be combined into the others, and thereby not be based on skills and race, but on training?"

Mikos says, "As opposed to doing anything else. I think some skill carry-over is probably in order."

Kuromaku says, "On all three, Kerl. Absolutely. I would never propose to discard all the hard work that all the warriors have put in to date."

Thrudh says, "As I discussed with you before, I am not interested in becoming a master forger. Just like many wizards aren't enchanters. What I am concerned with is that many of these skills will become nearly mandatory for older warriors. I have no desire to spend a few months running a script to master repair, strengthening, etc."

Kuromaku asks, "Mandatory? How so? Why do you think you'll HAVE to?"

Thrudh asks, "Repair seems like a fairly mandatory skill, doesn't it?"

Kuromaku asks, "Any more than you HAVE to ambush? You'll always be able to have a friend repair, or pay for it."

Dalimar grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Mikos says, "I agree, Thrudh. Like getting someone to pop your box for you, you'll have to get someone to repair your weapons for you."

Thrudh says, "Why would a warrior need a friend to maintain his weapons?"

Kuromaku asks, "Why would a rogue need someone to open a box? You could go to the local blacksmith, and have them repair, or ask a friend. I'd be hard pressed to find a warrior who wouldn't help you, Thrudh."

Geijon asks, "Superior Skill. You'd rather have a master forger forge Excaliber rather then a common metalsmith, aye?"

Mikos says, "My assumption is that breakage will (hopefully) be implemented similar to how it was in the past. That means that while things do break, things won't constantly break."

Thrudh says, "Until they're swung at plate. He busted an imflass falchion on me first swing."

Kuromaku says, "I think Plate repairmen will be rare, and expensive, probably. But then again, your plate ain't gonna break too often. And worst case, you'll melt it down, and make new."

Mikos says, "Material choice is a key factor in breakage, or at least it was. Part of the problem here is that we're talking about a system that we're not working on. We'll have input when it gets to testing, but prior to that it's really not something we know the ins and outs of."

Thrudh says, "Okay. As long as there are sufficient avenues for me to get my weaponry repaired, I guess I'll be happy. I don't see Thrud as a barbarian weaponsmith."

Titaniia says, "That brings something up. If I melt down crit-padded plate, it's just gonna be normal plate?"

Kuromaku says, "Currently the smelter will discard all padding, weighting, or anything that isn't a factor of the metal itself. Magical metals will retain their natural bonus. Imflass will be +12."

Titaniia says, "I mean, I can see why that's so. You don't want people melting claids into rapiers."

Heindel asks, "So then this claidhmore if resmelted will still be sanctioned metal if reforged into a claidhmore?"

Heindel taps an iorake claidhmore.

Mikos says, "Right now there's no capability in the forge system for making armor, so how one might add or preserve padding hasn't been addressed yet in any sense."

Kuromaku says, "But weighting is. And it just gets discarded. Weighting is a function of, well, weighting. Where the weight is. That's a forge issue, not a metal issue."

Mikos says, "Kuromaku and I haven't discussed it, but I expect smelting will reduce any item to its base material. If the material is normally enchanted, or normally holy, then that aspect will remain. If it isn't innate to the material, the smelting it will destroy that quality."

Hyoko says, "I understand that this is all premature speculation on a future system. However, with proper and consistent repair, should there be a need to melt down crit armor?"

Kuromaku says, "Not that I can tell, Hyoko. Unless you have a desire to make a series of weapons instead."

Mikos says, "I would think not, Hyoko."

Kerl just disappeared.

Geijon says, "In the ICE age I believe breakage occured on misses, and vaguely I remember some'un, perhaps Mikos, posting on the boards that items after being damaged beyond 50% would not be repairable. I believe Cryheart might remember more on the specific post, though, and it could be rumor."

Kinshack appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Mikos gestures and a shaft of scintillating light from somewhere above pierces the ceiling and engulfs him. When the light recedes Mikos is no longer there.

Kuromaku says, "OK. Repair stuffs. Based on early spec documents that Ophion threw past me a long time ago, you could repair any item, as long as it wasn't catastrophically ruined, i.e., in a gazillion pieces. However, doing so would require substantially more skill, and failure to repair might actually do more damage, thus destroying items. As far as exactly what will be the FINAL result, I don't know. Initial proposals had repairskill+itemuseskill+(some physical factor)+open roll > than damage in some way. Which means that to repair a sword, you needed edged skill, plus repair, plus strength (for example) + d100 > damage. This is all THEORY...NONE of it may be true. This was a VERY early document."

Jafirnn says, "Ahhh, so like, I couldn't repair a blunt weapon in theory? Interesting."

Kuromaku says, "You couldn't, Jafirnn, and it makes sense. If you don't know how it's supposed to work."

Thrudh asks, "Would the NPC repairer have no chance of failure, similar to Eowyna with lockpicks?"

Kuromaku says, "No, Thrudh. Eowyna can fail. The NPC repairer will be at just short of Mastery. A player will always be better than an NPC. So an NPC repairer might be at 90%. Although, much discussion has been made about different smiths having different skills, so you might have to travel to Trace to get blunts fixed, or Teras to get a two-hander fixed. It makes for more realism. It makes for legendary smiths."

Kinshack asks, "This is just for repair skill, Kuro?"

Kuromaku says, "Yes, currently. We have it for manufacture. Who wouldn't rather have a Stovel blade than an Uxbri blade? So the point is that folks would travel far to have a beloved blade fixed RIGHT, as opposed to just patching it anywhere."

Kinshack asks, "How often are you hoping to see a constant swinger have to repair their weapon, and how much do you expect them to pay for such services?"

Kuromaku says, "I expect that minor repairs will happen weekly. I expect them to be cheap, and easily handled. If you leave them, they compound."

Kinshack asks, "So the hasting toothpick wielder might see the repairman a bit more often, eh, and pay a bit more?"

Kuromaku says, "Might see it daily."

Hyoko says, "I can see that this might be quite complicated. If you restrict repairing to certain sites, fights will develop for equipment. The repair areas will become flooded."

Kuromaku says, "Forges. That issue is being addressed seriously. I plan on dealing with them much like we deal with the doors in batter training."

Gaq appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Jafirnn says, "Enchants for repairs...that sounds like a good trade Mr. Wizard. Great idea."

Hyoko says, "Still, the doors in battering training are a first-in, first-use thing. There will be quite a line. Somehow a queueing system will have to be set up."

Heindel says, "Might be better to do them like the temple tapestry."

Kythyn just disappeared.

Kinshack asks, "Once breakage is back in, how will matters be handled if certain creatures have a tendency to destroy armor erratically, without any warning? Will these cases be handled reasonably until such creatures are moderated?"

Kuromaku asks, "Reasonably? Something breaks your armor, you're gonna have to get it fixed, because breakage will be so thoroughly tested, that if it DOES break, it will have SUPPOSED to have done that. I expect pyrothags to be completely empty."

Kuromaku grins.

Kuromaku says, "Go hunting in discardable armor."

Kuromaku says, "Let's pause a sec and get an opinion. Do any of you think, at all, that we aren't doing anything?"

Thrudh looks over at Kuromaku and shakes his head.

Ruffelin shakes his head.

Heindel looks over at Kuromaku and shakes his head.

Gaq says, "Ah fink yer gonna do summink.."

Cryheart shakes his head.

Geijon looks over at Kuromaku and shakes his head.

Kuromaku asks, "How about that we don't understand the issues?"

Pyranth says, "I do not think that... I do think your hands are tied in many areas."

Jafirnn looks over at Kuromaku and shakes his head.

Hyoko says, "At times, honorable Lord Kuromaku, I wonder because so much time seems to go into, say, Solhaven."

Kuromaku says, "I have intentionally avoided Solhaven."

Hyoko says, "I have been told by Lord Mikos at times that he cannot address some issues because he is working on Solhaven."

Kuromaku says, "It's Mikos' baby. Forging was meant to be a long term experimental system. Also Mikos'."

Heindel says, "I feel the answers to balance are not easy, so, no, I don't feel like you don't understand the problems. The solutions aren't easy though, Kuromaku."

Kuromaku says, "I agree. I agree for sure, Jim. But if we all can't come to some solutions, nothing's going to change."

Gaq asks, "Realistically, will our armours become to fragile to risk? Will dey break irrepairably? Ought we all wear cheapo "a mein full plate?"

Kuromaku says, "No, No, and No."

Kuromaku asks, "And as for hard solutions? I'm not afraid of a fight, folks. But you can see that I can't just wander in and say, "We need to fix this!" I need some clearcut, actionable items. Resistance to fear makes sense. Somehow, I think that helps Dalimar and not many more of us. But what the heck, it's simple enough to discuss."

Kinshack says, "I think a good start, if we haven't already had a 'good start,' would be to brainstorm skills or otherwise that are *exclusive* for warriors. Some of your proposals are great. (I'd say all are.) But some of the new implimentations are universal, and warriors will just be given a chance to excel. We need something that is exclusively ours. Only clerics can meditate, only empaths can transfer, only bards can play lutes (I know they can't now), only wizards enchant, only sorcerers summon demons. You see what I mean. Rogues need something exclusive. Warriors need something exclusive. But I think if we start brainstorming something that can be *exclusively* ours, I think we'll head down the right road. And don't say the guild, there's going to be 7 other guilds ;)"

Kuromaku says, "That's a role thing...not a balance thing."

Kinshack asks, "What's the difference there? Mainly, we need something to *give back*"

Kuromaku says, "Doesn't help us in combat."

Kinshack says, "That's the other issue."

Kuromaku says, "I think we've got that covered, Kinshack."

Gaq asks, "Surely , da oft mooted "warriors can repair/maintain weapons an' shields" would be a good unique skill , yah?"

Kuromaku says, "I think that Forging and Repair will go a long way, and DEFEND will help on top of that."

Kinshack asks, "Thing is, I thought all professions can do that?"

Kuromaku says, "Sure. And all classes cast spells, Kinshack."

Kinshack asks, "Tell us you'll make it as difficult for a wizard to repair as it is for us to learn 401?"

Kuromaku says, "It already is."

Heindel says, "Combat-related special maneuvers for squares only, I think, is a route to go. Viable combat maneuvers."

Kuromaku says, "Mmm. Again, I don't want to get into a "These 4 classes only" type of skill."

Kinshack asks, "Use a redux approach? That was a great method."

Kuromaku says, "More likely, Kinshack."

Kuromaku says, "OK, a redux of what DEFEND is, for those of you who didn't read the boards, or whatever. DEFEND is a proposed verb, by me, to allow someone to defend a player, critter, or object. Any physical attack targetting said defended object will target the defender, and give 5 seconds RT to the defender. If you're in RT, you can't defend."

Titaniia says, "Two issues. Firstly, no magiker is gonna need us to do that under the current system, as much as they should have to. Secondly, if it actually works, and you get invited to hunt with a party because you can defend, are you going to be able to learn anything at anywhere near the same rate as the rest of the group? You'll be constantly in RT from defending. That said, I love the idea for RP reasons."

Kuromaku says, "OK. Here's my argument, and usages. If a warrior were defending an empath, they could stand there forever. If a warrior were defending another warrior, they'd take turns. Will a wizard want us to defend? Dunno. Makes more sense to throw the defense on US and have US guard them since, if we DO get hit, we take less damage. For experience, there are many chances for abuse of the skill, so it will have to be carefully designed. But, as I said, a troop of warriors during an invasion defending all sorts of casters seems to make more sense to me, or all of them defending Berr, and he can berserk. So, will we be invited into groups? Yes, I think so. Warriors can handle damage, so let us handle damage, and let the others help us deal with it. It helps them."

Gaq asks, "Yah able to demonstrate dis guardin' fer us?"

Kuromaku says, "No code's been done. But how about I fake it."

Kuromaku moves over in front of Gaq to defend him.

A fearsome rolton attacks Gaq.

Kuromaku steps in front of the bite intended for Gaq!

Kuromaku exclaims, "At which point, Gaq clearly kills the rolton, and we are saved!"

Kinshack asks, "Can you defend in stance def?"

Kuromaku says, "Yes, Kinshack."

Geijon says, "I had a suggestion from a friend warrior some time ago as to making warriors RT lessen with age, allowing us to swing faster, as casting time goes down for sorcies, etc."

Kuromaku says, "WAY too tough. I love that suggestion, but Combat RT is all hard coded, which is why haste REMOVES all RT, instead of making it a minimum of 1 second. A common GM gripe. Haste reduces it below 0."

Hyoko says, "Honorable Lord Kuromaku, you were saying, I believe, that putting in multi-opps was difficult because many warriors were not trained in it. Is it possible to have multi-opps be a blend of multi-opps training and armor usage training, perhaps?"

Kuromaku says, "Well, the real reason it's tough, is that MO isn't used in anything. As some of you will recall, MO used to be Riding ."

Heindel asks, "My add on to his statement, Kuromaku, if I may? If it was, as he mentioned, a combo of armor and MO, then those like Dalimar wouldn't be shafted since Dalimar does have ARMOR skill. And since only warriors can triple in armor, this would give them the edge on it."

Pyranth says, "This may be ignorant. Add a "spell circle" sort of thing, open to all professions. Make other professions pay like we do for a "spell." Call it attack maneuvers or some such."

Kuromaku says, "The idea, maneuver attacks, has been forwarded. It isn't ignorant. Not at all. It's a fine suggestion."

Lyle appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku says, "OK...here's what we're going to do. I now have a list of each and every one of you, which means you are now responsible for designing, suggesting, recommending, and otherwise forwarding our class. Whining and complaining about this stuff in the future is hereby prohibited."

Kinshack asks, "How specific do you want us to get, Kuro?"

Kuromaku says, "As specific as you want."

Kinshack asks, "Should we strain our understanding of mechanics to the limits?"

Kuromaku says, "Yes, and expect to be smacked down, Kinshack. Folks, you're here because you know more about being a warrior in this game than anyone else. My job is to disabuse you of some very common notions, IF I CAN. As an employee of Simu, there are things that I CANNOT tell you. I trust that you allow me to say, on occasion, "No, and I can't tell you why." However, wherever I can elaborate on why something will or won't work, I will do so. All this makes sense?"

Hyoko asks, "Lord Kuromaku, how public is the information here? For instance, may I give a copy to the Silver Gryphons?"

Kuromaku says, "Everything I've said here is open. However, I would caution you about taking things out of context."

Thrudh says, "You might consider the allegations of favoritism that any people here will be facing."

Kuromaku says, "Allegations of favoritism? Sure, I played favorites. I didn't want anyone who wasn't in the game at the time. And when they got here, I dragged them in."

Thrudh says, "I'm not arguing that. Just saying it will be said."

Kuromaku says, "Let 'em say it, and you can all tell those people to stuff it."

Ruffelin says, "Just out of curiosity, you said that whenever a change comes up, how it affects older players counts more than how it will affect new players. I assume that the reason existing players win out over future players is the GM's seeming phobia about reallocation. However, I wonder, are our numbers (meaning existing players) so great that they're willing to risk the appeal to future players (and future revenues) by *not* making changes or, more drastically, by starting from scratch? "

Kuromaku says, "Ruffe, that's the crux of all of this. What are we willing to risk? How many players will we lose to frustration vs. how many will choose and discard this game over it's obvious imbalance? As a longterm game, we're kinda hopeless, save for the relationships we form. And many of you are here for the friends you've made, not the stellar game balance. It's not my call. Not by a long shot. Many GMs are REALLY frustrated by this. They know what is RIGHT, but cannot do ANYTHING, for fear of ticking off a longtime user base."

Ruffelin says, "I know relationships are a big factor for me, but so many people re-roll every time there's a game change, it makes me wonder."

Kuromaku says, "It's a fine question, Ruffe, and the one I wrestle with daily. What can I do that won't piss off the other 7 classes? What can I do that will fix your issues, without pissing YOU off? Not easy."

Cryheart asks, "Have any of the GMs thought of doing a survey to get an actual account of the attitudes rather than from da boards?"

Kuromaku asks, "Empirical data? That would make too much sense! Why would we do THAT?!"

Lotharius appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku says, "NOW then, DOES ANYONE HERE THINK I DON'T CARE?"

Lotharius says, "I never claimed you didnt care."

Kuromaku says, "You missed a mess of stuff, but here's the short version. If you keep whining and arguing on the boards, we lose. We work as a team, we win. That's military. That's sports. That's common sense. The very idea that (for example) clerics are gaining a sorely needed revamp of their circle somehow reflects negatively on us, I don't see it. We aren't in a race against other classes."

Lotharius says, "I heard the same thing about the Open Essense list"

Thrudh says, "I'd suggest bringing in both Welan and Geoff's players, when possible. They're both very vocal on the boards."

Lyle says, "Berr, if he's not already a GM."

Kuromaku says, "Berr is always welcome."

Lotharius says, "Kuromaku, I have been telling them when I think they are wrong for the last 8 years. That wont change."

Kuromaku says, "Bleys, I've been a GM for about a year, a guru for 6 months, and only because I demanded it, because the former guru was a Bard, and he didn't want to do it. He liked warriors though, to be fair. He liked 'em fine and knew quite a bit, and he would have liked to have been a good guru, but didn't have time. So, you have me. What I think we need to do is acknowledge the fact that this is a new ballgame as of 6 months ago, and we have some work to do. Curious, but I'd like to think we've gained some ground in the last 6 months."

Kinshack says, "Kuromaku, I'd like to write up a few ideas about weapon mastery. Do I have your blessing on that? Interested?"

Kuromaku says, "Kinshack, do what you have to do. Just expect ALL of us to critique it. Oh, if you mail me anything, unless you state otherwise, all suggestions may end up in front of all of you."

Hyoko asks, "When might we expect to have another meeting, Lord Kuromaku?"

Berr appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku says, "Well, meetings like this are subject to me not being passed out cold by 3am. So, having said that, I'm going to try to meet with you guys on Saturdays, at about the same time. This is NOT a regularly scheduled event and should not be considered one. OK, let's rehash for the new guys. Here's the deal. The group that's passed through this dojo represents a large chunk of warrior learning in the past 8 years, good and bad. If the group of us cannot determine how to make this class more viable, then we truly know nothing. I think we have ideas, and I think there are enough of us to address those ideas in a realistic fashion. Most of us, with some thought, can tell you why certain things are good ideas, and why certain things don't solve anything."

Berr asks, "What are the basic problems you have defined for the profession?"

Kuromaku says, "Basic issues: Armed combat isn't viable as an alternative to magical or magical assisted combat. Warriors have no viable place in a mixed party. Warriors provide no role in a sole capacity. I miss anything?"

Geijon says, "This is aside from that, but perception of warriors is such "Oh thats a wizard, He/she can cast spells, enchant etc." Rarely will you hear thats a warrior, its normally 'Thats so and so. That perhaps goes back to our group effectiveness."

Kuromaku says, "And role within group."

Berr says, "1. Warriors are the only class defined by what they CANNOT do, not what they CAN do."

Kuromaku says, "Plain vanilla syndrome. We discussed that."

Berr says, "2. Essence. This is still the RM world. The basic idea is control of the Essence. ALL things flow from that. Manipulation of the essence is spells. We do not have access to the LIFE of this universe. We are cutoff. Outsiders. We are physical beings in a magical world, animals that must walk with angels is you will. Those two issues are the core, and ALL the game mechanics problems flow from too much essence."

Kuromaku asks, "I get a response?"

Berr says, "Please"

Kuromaku says, "One, yes. The fighter class in ANY RPG is the base class."

Berr says, "Dont do this please. That's boilerplate rhetoric."

Kuromaku says, "Uh-uh. It's viewpoint. Lemme finish. While you view a warrior as the absence of stuff, I view a warrior at the very CORE of everything. EVERYTHING is a warrior. When you get right down to it, all of us are fighters."

Lyle asks, "How many fighters in D&D you know who do anything but fight?"

Berr says, "And everyone is better at fighting than warriors."

Lotharius asks, "Ah, but who swings a weapon better than they do in D&D, Lyle?"

Kuromaku says, "Ah. Fighting? The removal of life from another organism, or the ability to be standing at the end of it? Anyway, it's a subtle difference, but one I seriously maintain. We aren't the absence of something. We're at the core, and here's why it's important. Point 2. In any game system, there is physical force and x force, where x force is magic, psi power, karma, chi--call it what you will--something other than hitting something on the head with a rock. The very best games balance Physical force with x force to provide variety. In all games, physical force is represented by the warrior. Call him what you want. He's the guy that deals physical damage. In most games, you add varying levels of magic--x force--and REDUCE the level of physical force in that class. That hasn't happened exactly. With a ranger, the balance is pretty good."

Berr says, "No it isn't. Guidance and WoF."

Kuromaku says, "Those are two spells that were added way late. Did they throw a wrench in the balance? Yes. Anyway, what you ultimately want to do, is provide a range of physical/xforce combinations, then FOILS to those. What I think we've done is provided too much magical support to the physical, which enables xforce folks to be physical. Shouldn't be that way, especially since now they overbalance the issue."

Gaq says, "There are many semis who have the same physical skills as us with the magic lobbed on top to make them unusually strong, especially at high ages."

Kuromaku says, "Yes, Gaq. I agree, but my point is thus. You said that the issue is that the world revolves around harnessing essence. Psi power. Chi. x-force. Sure. My issue is that the world currently revolves around turning x-force into physical power, and now it's exceeded physical force, naturally. So we have an imbalance."

Lotharius says, "And most spellcasters arent going to be happy with =

losing that advantage"

Kuromaku says, "Magic is now strong at magic, and physical has nowhere to go. The answer isn't to up our firepower. It's to lower theirs. Upping our firepower doesn't gain us anything that they can't match."

Titaniia says, "But that's the opposite of the way things are headed."

Gaq asks, "As a counter though, say we're talking when lots of people are 150 rather than 50 as they are now, our DFredux will have been rising. The magically enhanced DS's will have remained almost static. Something to look forward to, eh?"

Kuromaku says, "Actually, no, Gaq. You're in the meaty part of the curve. In a couple decades you slow down. Anyway, Berr, I agree with basically what you say, but it's not conducive to trying to get it changed. So, aside from minor philosophical difficulties, we're working on the same thing."

Berr says, "Agreed. You won't do what you have to in order to fix the basic problem."

Kuromaku says, "You meaning Simu."

Berr says, "You are representing Simu."

Kuromaku says, "I represent Kuromaku, which means that I have to fight against Simu to get my changes too. So let's not be silly. Because the idea that I won't go toe to toe with Jaxxon, Banthis, Issigrii, and Mhorigan to make my points is wrong."

Berr says, "Well, I think you jump sides when you need to, but that's =

part of the basic conflict of the 'Guru'."

Kuromaku says, "I don't jump sides. I do what I think is right for the game, Berr. I fail to see why what's good for us has to be bad for the game? I think they're one and the same."

Lotharius says, "We already have bad for the game....its called to much magic."

Kuromaku says, "That would be a fair assessment, if a bit too simply put."

Berr says, "I don't care about balance, equality, parity, or any of that. Sorry. So what to fix it?"

Kuromaku says, "You tell me. According to you, there's no point."

Berr asks, "Want my list now?"

Kuromaku says, "Sure. I love to negotiate with terrorists."

Kuromaku winks at Berr.

Berr says, "I got a list of fixes I can tun thru fast, if you are interested."

Kuromaku says, "Yes, please."

Berr says, "Define the physical world. Lot of things there. Simple things. Common example is use of aqua wands on Teras to cool armor. It's an island with fountains, and I have to use a wand to get water. The whole physical world is grossly underbuilt. IF the world FELT more physical. WE would belong more or feel like it. Do any of you feel left out seeing everyone casting spells? And when we go use a scroll its like watching a parrot talk."

Jafirnn nods to Berr.

Berr says, "Ain't that cute. The physical world don't exist. I understand it since spells are more fun, and the detail involved is huge, but that long term GOAL should be a more physical world. The climbin in the Rift is a prime example, and EVERYONE screams. They want to waggle their way from here to there. List of changes would include: 1. Warriors may train animals. Pets, horses, whatever, for riding, sending, fetching, etc. NOT the same links as the others, but fun none the less. 2. Shield Use is wimpy DS. Most things we have work like SPELLS. Shield use adds to DS. It should have its own physical analogy. IF I had trained for 85 years in using a shield, and a lava blob flew at me, I'd RAISE the shield, not stand there and get hit. The shield would heat up, NOT my amror. Same with firebals and doding spears. Shields are active/physical items like a weapon. Charge, Bash, Ram. All the manuever attacks."

Lotharius says, "Ducking is more rogue speed. Parrying spears with shield or weapon."

Berr says, "3. Armor adjustments. Make this like spells. Based on your armor training a warrior adjusts armor, cinch a strap, tighten here to reduce crits. Padding. Temporary in duration and effectiveness. Based on the skill of the warrior doing it. We could do it to others as well as ourselves. Akins to spelling up. Same with weapons. Show someone how to hold a weapon. Balance it, swing it. It INCREASE either damage, aiming or crits. Duration and effect varies with skill. Weapon focus and meditation. A warrior focuses himself thru his weapon like a monk meditating, then gets up and goes out to fight. Effect may vary here. Elemental crits maybe, crit damage, extra damage etc. Next armor/weapon repair. A mage must have a weapon in perfect/near perfect repair to ET. ET failure increases with degree of damage. To ET a 8 or 9 X it better be in almost perfect shape. Get an old warrior to get in repaired REAL well first. Then ET it. Mage and warriors work together. Carry even FARTHER. Forging. A warrior may forge a weapon TUNED to a Mage. So that ETing by that MAGE is easier. Define easier however you want. Perhaps Warrior/Waggler teams in forging could IMBED a spell in a weapon. Elementals, other spells, whatever. Imagine a sword with DISPEL in it as a crit?"

Kuromaku says, "Imagine I'd already scripted one."

Berr says, "Physical attacks beyond a sword. ALL of the Guild skills are great, but are about 67% of where they should be. Increase them 1/3 in effectiveness and you now have combat skills, things we could use tommorrow. Make physical injuries actually COUNT. A waggler with a hangnail can't invoke his mother's name. This would also make HEALERS more important. Maybe take them WITH?"

Titaniia says, "that would make the defend verb worth more."

Berr says, "DEFEND. Good example. Would a warrior be valuable if in the party he could ALWAYS be the primary critter target? We joke about warrior bait. Make it REAL."

Titaniia says, "Berr, Kuromaku allready working on that."

Lotharius says, "Dunno about you Titaniia, but currently warriors need defending, not other way around."

Heindel says, "Aye, but Berr's idea's could very well give Kuromaku more ideas on how to expand or clarify Defend, Tani."

Berr says, "Well that's enough to start. I have more but I can't find the file."

Kuromaku says, "OK. That's a pretty good list. Time for some quick comments."

Pyranth says, "I suggest we quit calling ourselves "squares." Self-depreciation is one thing. Self-humilitation is another."

Lotharius says, "I prefer armsusers."

Kuromaku says, "More major system changes have occurred in the last 6 months than in the last 3 years. I think you'll agree with that. More minor projects, service projects, and just flat out fluff have been made recently."

Berr asks, "Well, can you do for Warriors what John did for Sorcs?"

Kuromaku says, "Not today, because I don't have his rank, or his time in, but I'll get there."

Berr says, "I mean in effect"

Kuromaku says, "In effect, I'll get there. Flat out, I am trying to be a really annoying advocate for warriors. I'm succeeding. Before I started screaming, repair wasn't a warrior issue. Now it is. Forging was a roleplaying device. Now it's functional."

Kinshack says, "I hope wizards and sorcerers hate us. Been looking forward to that day a long time."

Kuromaku says, "If they do, Kinshack, we're half there. When they FEAR us, we're there. I understand the issues pretty well. The REAL issues."

Kinshack says, "Kuromaku, we realize you're working on stuff. I'm glad you're not giving these BS "Real Soon Nows." The waiting, simply put, sucks. You talking to us helps a whole lot though."

Kuromaku says, "OK, let's discuss waiting. Folks, this is a hobby for me, not a full time job. Wish it were. Most days, I'm working 12-14 hours, and I come home and do this when I'm not dying to pass out. Last week, I was on 8 airplanes in 8 days. Not much time for logging on."

Berr asks, "Ok, so we understand its an uphill job and you are =

overworked and underpaid. When is it gonna be done!?"

Kuromaku says, "When my real life workschedule slows down some."

Berr says, "Oh, oh. Living armor and weapons. Warriors should have living armor and weapons. Bonded to your weapon and armor."

Kuromaku says, "Sentient weapons."

Berr says, "If you drop it, you 'call' it to your hand, ala Jedi trick. A warrior bonded to his weapon."

Kuromaku asks, "Do you die if your weapon shatters?"

Kinshack says, "You can roleplay as much, Berr, for now."

Kuromaku says, "OK, we're gettin' punchy."

Berr grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there =

anymore.

Kuromaku says, "OK. Last call. When I say I'm working on it, I'M WORKING ON IT."

Kinshack asks, "Kuro, how much time in raw hours does stuff take to code in Elanthian' language?"

Kuromaku says, "Kinshack, it definitely depends. Bounce was coded in 4 hours."

Kinshack asks, "Four bloody hours?"

Kuromaku says, "Well, think about it. I have to allow for the verb, then check for target. Make sure that the person nor target isn't invisible or hidden. Check for all sorts of things like stunned, dead, environs."

Geijon asks, "So you have to code against us bouncing at invisible people?"

Kuromaku says, "Didn't say that, Geijon."

Kinshack says, "You need some template verbs which you can just alter to your liking."

Kuromaku says, "I do. That's why SHRIEK took 2 hours."