This is the log of the tenth Warriors’ Meeting held September 19, 1998 at 11:00 a.m. EST.

[Kuromaku's Dojo]

Diffuse light streams in through the ricepaper shoji screens which enclose this large room. Thick cotton-wrapped tatami mats cover the polished pine floor. Wooden weapon racks are set against the walls filled with assorted weapons, both rattan and metal. You also see a plain iron chest, a low pine table with some stuff on it, an elegant freestanding bamboo cage, a sliding screen and a heavy mithril-bound hatch.

Also in the room: Lord Pyranth (seated), Lord Thrudh (seated), Lord Blaqtar (seated), Lady Titaniia (seated), Lord Aonghus (seated), Lord Kerl (seated), Lord Cryheart (seated), Lord Gaq, Lord Khazaan (seated), GameMaster Lord Kuromaku

Obvious exits: none.

You see Lord Kuromaku Hikoemon the Giantman Warrior.

He appears to be in his 110's, has short, straight black hair, dark eyes, and black skin.

He is in good shape.

He is wearing a leather sheath, an ancient enruned urnon key, a dark silk shirt, a crafter's apron, a jade-inlaid sheath, some dark trousers, a dark silk satchel, and a blackened mesh belt.

Kuromaku says, "No. You don't have to be friends. You don't have to like anyone. I'm not even insisting that you follow the rules of the Guild. I am bringing to your attention the fact that the incidents of warriors finding themselves in conflicts in which GMs are getting involved is increasing. That is ALL I am saying. And I believe it's a function of the fact that I am somehow not setting a good example. I have not made it clear enough that we should set examples of EVERY kind. You don't have to be a nice guy, but if you're going to be a bad guy, be a GOOD bad guy. Don't get GMs involved. Show people how to RP evil without breaking the rules. Show people how to resolve conflict in good solid manners, not ‘Pow!’ There are right ways and wrong ways. You know the difference, or should. And I think we need to reinforce that mentality in ourselves. We're dumb, stupid fiters. Leave the high-level intrigue that results in dozens dead to the casters. Leave the ‘I'll get my whole family after you’ mentality at home. And should something occur that riles up you and your friends, be the calming influence, not the inciteful one. This is not a mandate, or a demand, or anything even remotely resembling that. It's a simple suggestion. Are there any questions about this?"

Hyoko says, "I was not here for your initial remarks, of course, but it seems to me that the increasing problems with GM/warriors may be just as much due to the increasing abilities of warriors, including DF redux, as it is to the Warriors' Guild skills. Warriors are becoming more confident. For those that are problems, this just makes them more overconfident."

Kuromaku says, "And now it's time to remind them of their manners. Yes, we're getting closer to parity. Let's not forget who we are. We've been united for many months...in some cases, years...and we've moved forward at a fine pace. Let's not fall apart at high speeds. I agree, Hyoko. It's because we have esprit now. We don't feel trod upon any more. We hold our own. We are not self-sufficient, per se, but we are confident and comfortable in our weaknesses. So, I'd say we were doing a good job. Let's keep up the positive attitude. OK. Last topic is up to you guys. Anything to suggest?"

Gaq asks, "Changes to toughness. Any clues, or it a secret?"

Kuromaku says, "That ain't a topic, and I ain't sayin' a thing about Redux. So deal with it. All you math majors can start working probability models."

Thrudh asks, "We gonna get to have any input on the Maneuvers?"

Kuromaku says, "That's a good question. I don't know right now. It's extremely likely, but no answer right now. Clearly those maneuvers are sitting outside my close range plans."

Titaniia says, "I think it would be helpful for us all if some of the other professions got some fluff verbs or something. I'm getting really sick of some tiny thing happening for us and getting attacked like we've just learnt to DC, raise the dead and cast colors."

Kuromaku says, "Tiny, I do not control the other classes. ASSESS is NOT a warrior verb. It's an everyone verb that has a warrior tweak, and I have invited the other gurus to add their functionality to assess. No one's attacking us."

Thrudh says, "You've got a lot of the battle won. Azure's supporting you."

Kuromaku says, "Because I support Azure. I think that she has valid points, and I support the idea of bards learning a lot more from items. It is not my decision, and I don't even get a say in it, but I think it's a good idea."

Titaniia says, "Gah, can I go back a topic for just once moment? I have a serious question and it’s really fairly OOC. It’s fairly silly, but there's some new group I've never heard of calling themselves the Wehnimer's Militia, and they got linked on the Simu website as such. You are not considering it conflict that I've written feedback asking that the link name be changed?"

Kuromaku says, "Wasn't aware of it."

Titaniia says, "Also, I am very well aware of several groups in the Landing attempting to "usurp" the militia, which I generally chuckle and shrug at, but that certainly doesn't stop them from being nasty and trying to start PvP with some of the younger members. It’s really quite silly, but none of it has anything to do with us or what we've tried to do. It’s just youngsters trying to make themselves famous, nine times outta ten, which is really not a warrior-only issue."

Kuromaku asks, "OK, does anyone have a topic? Or am I just wasting my time?"

Kerl says, "I do have something I'd like to speak about briefly. ‘Tis more general than warrior-specific. It's about history, personal history. Recently I agreed to tell the tale of the Gryphon Sword at the Stone Eye in a couple weeks. It's a great tale. The only problem is, I can't remember enough of it, as it's more an epic saga than a tale. All I'd like to say is two things. Record your involvement in such tales for the benefit of folks in the future, and I could use a bit of help with that particular historical event."

Khazaan says, "I can send you the dissertations of the prophet, if that would help."

Kerl says, "You can send what you know to ‘archigeek@aol.com.’ I'd appreciate it much."

Kuromaku asks, "OK. Any questions?"

Hyoko says, "We've discussed many subjects over the weeks, and I don't know if you gave your usual report earlier in the meeting. What subjects will be getting your attention in the very near future?"

Kuromaku says, "Patching ASSESS to handle assorted flukes and tweaks. Moving my apartment. Coding the Rogue's Guild. And working with a design team on Repair/Breakage."

Blaqtar asks, "About the assess, will we be able to do bastard swords? Tells me to take it to a shop for that."

Kuromaku says, "One of the flukes. OK, any last comments?"

Gaq asks, "DFAdder?"

Kuromaku says, "Forget it. I got basically shredded."

Khazaan asks, "Why did they shred it?"

Kuromaku says, "For obvious reasons."

Khazaan says, "It’s something that would make warriors more warriorly. We’re not rogues. We don’t hide and ambush."

Kuromaku says, "It would make them indestructible AND capable of whacking anything."

Khazaan says, "Hardly indestructable, and we can whack anything anyway. Whether we survive is another story."

Kuromaku asks, "Khazaan, we don't need to go through the 1500AS test again, do we? You wanna live forever?"

Khazaan says, "And I proved that I didn’t survive your ambushes."

Kuromaku says, "That's right. It's a question of critter balance, not of our assault skills."

Khazaan asks, "How ‘bout if we can have the old CM defense mechanics back?"

Kuromaku says, "No. I'm not changing the arms combat system. At least, not now. Other things are in motion."

Khazaan says, "Well, it WAS a good idea."

Kuromaku says, "The solution is good given certain assumptions. Those assumptions are incorrect."

Titaniia asks, "Kuro, can you please tell us if there are any other plans in the works to help OHE warriors kill from the open, or if that is the general thought towards us? That we should not be effecient killers? Personally, I did an experiment this morning. I hid and ambushed five harbingers from hiding. I killed them all in one shot except one who took two. I normally take about 45 swings to kill a harbinger from the open. I cannot live through 45 swings without severe spell defenses. That is not balance."

Kuromaku says, "So stop hunting harbingers. That just seems dumb to me."

Kinshack asks, "Harbingers are supposed to be masters of combat anyway. The proverbial 'dark knight,' no? Should be damned difficult to kill them in a one-on-one, head-to-head fight."

Titaniia says, "At my age, there aren't many choices. Pinefar is it. The point is not that it should be that way, the point is that we remain the "bastard" profession who cannot hunt on a level par to others. Aye, Thrudh, I do, I run back and forth to Pinefar all day. It drives me batty."

Khazaan says, "Sentinels, banshees, devils, lizards. Pick one."

Titaniia says, "Can't hunt sents and banshees for the same reason. Same with troll kings. Seriously, I'm down to 14 deeds. I am very near to considering myself unviable."

Kinshack says, "There are definitely places where we are inferior. But I've noticed that there are also some places where we shine."

Kuromaku says, "There are more critters at your age then at 15. Shall I list 'em for you, Tiny? Ice elementals, major glaceis, wooly mammoths, banshees, troll kings, stone sentinels, shadow steeds, Sheruvian harbingers, red-scaled thraks, mud wasps, sand devils, firethorn shoots, siren lizards, soul golems, wind wraiths, snakes, sabretooth tigers, ice wraiths.... Should I continue? You can learn from all of those, Tiny. And by my reckoning, a few dozen more."

Gaq says, "Why not TK's? Did TK's afore had toughness."

Titaniia says, "Because harbingers run through there all the time, Gaq."

Titaniia says, "Hrmm. Only ones doable on that list for me are wasps, shoots, lizards, tigers, steeds and golems. And I won't go to Teras."

Kinshack says, "If your choice is to not go to Teras, or Pinefar, it's your choice, that's all."

Kuromaku says, "Try hunting with someone."

Titaniia asks, "Bah, again. Why is the OHE warrior the only profession that must do that? Oh, and empaths."

Kuromaku says, "Oh, please. Watch empaths hunt. Watch clerics hunt their level alone."

Titaniia says, "The ones that do well are ambushing clerics and repell."

Kinshack says, "Give us creatures in the 65+ range in the Landing, and you'll get level 30 twits getting spelled to the gills and going to hunt alone."

Kuromaku says, "So if you wanted to hunt alone, you'd need to ambush. OK. You win."

Titaniia says, "It all comes down to spells."

Kuromaku says, "For about a week, until Aephir sees it."

Titaniia says, "Yeah, and then the critters get tougher and those of us who "play fair" find ourselves lying on the ground dead."

Thrudh says, "The issues are: 1. Hunting alone, 2. Hunting unspelled, 3. Hunting from the open, 4. Hunting with OH weapons. 5. Not using Guild skills for hunting. If you take all of those together, of course you're going to have troubles."

Titaniia says, "Sorry. I'm really not whining, and I do use guild skills. That's how I survive seekers now. I give up, I'm gonna ambush from hiding from now on and just keep my mouth shut."

Kinshack asks, "Is there any possibility of giving the warrior more incentive to use his guild skills in a group situation? For example, I tackle creature A. My rogue friend in hiding ambushes it and cuts its head off."

Kuromaku says, "No."

Thrudh says, "Tackling gives experience. Not as much as you'd get for killing the critter, but you get some. Probably just like for binding."

Kinshack asks, "Can't we share?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not playing with Guild Skills until after the RG. I don't even want to contemplate it. Not yet. I, and a bunch of other GMs, are beginning to think as a team when we make new systems. It'll show."

Kerl says, "I'd like to say that I'm quite happy with the mechanical aspects of things. There's always something, but I'd rather see your time spent on roleplaying elements and quests, etc."

Kuromaku says, "The mechanics still have a way to go. The point is sound, however. I'm trying to increase the RP aspects of the game as well."

Kinshack says, "It'll be nice when a semblance of balance is restored. Well, semblance is already there. When a balance is restored."

Kuromaku asks, "OK. Last questions?"

Kerl says, "There's better balance now than I've ever seen. Time to give primary focus to the real reason we're all here, roleplaying."

Kuromaku says, "Got buy in on "kits" in the Guild. That'll help. We discussed this many months ago. The idea of allowing a warrior to choose a ‘kit.’ Barbarian, knight, soldier, mercenary, scout, etc., and give them minor bonuses/penalties to their Guild skills based on their kit. Additionally, it would change the title of the player from Lord to Khan, Knight, etc."

Titaniia says, "I have a roleplay problem with you using the term ‘knight.’ Yeah, unless yer only sellin ‘em to Cemb and Welan. They aren't for sale. They're free to choose."

Titaniia says, "Doesn't matter what order anyone is in. Only two people been knighted."

Kuromaku says, "By YOUR king."

Kuromaku sticks out his tongue.

Titaniia says, "King? He's a baron and he's not mine."

Titaniia sticks out her tongue.

Kuromaku asks, "So then who cares? There's more than one barony, and as far as I can tell..."

Titaniia says, "’Cause it should mean something when something extraordinary happens like that. If others get knighted for other reasons by other baronies, then give them knight kits. Just because something gets bastardized is no reason to give ground on the rest."

Kuromaku says, "I think that Knight is a suitable kit for anyone, and if you choose to only be knighted by your Baron, so be it."

Aonghus says, "There were also the Knight Errants, who would be knighted by Lords. As a Lord, I'd be able to knight anyone. And they WOULD be a Knight."

Kinshack says, "Being a knight is a state of mind anyway."

Titaniia says, "Kuro, the history of the lands puts us as part of the human empire in Wehnimer's Landing."

Kuromaku says, "You are not a human. Based on that history, you'd be one of every 100 warriors. Count."

Titaniia says, "It doesn't matter, it’s still the history as it has developed, they "rule" over us in a very bizarre way."

Kerl asks, "What about different historical warrior types, like light infantry, heavy calvary, footman, pikeman, etc.?"

Kuromaku says, "That's more training than kit."

Titaniia says, "And frankly, I think "Knight" should be a title that we can all aspire to, no matter what organization or what have you. I would just like to see it remain a special thing given out by NPCs. This land should have heros. Other then that, I love your idea."

Kuromaku says, "Uh. I think the fact that it's a "special" title is root of a lot of problems. Just an opinion."

Titaniia says, "And I don't think that it should be a "Gryphons" thing at all."

Titaniia says, "We all forget, Kerschewitz is a knight. He was knighted by Norander, who turned out to be a Sylvan prince."

Kuromaku says, "So are 1000 other fighters who claim to be. Roleplaying game, remember?"

Kinshack says, "Anyone can be able to pick knight. If they can say ‘I was knighted by x king in x land for x deed.’ Why not let them? If it's someone people know, like Norandar knighting Kerschewitz, he might get more prestige for it."

Kuromaku says, "There's no formal title in this game of ‘Knight Rogues claim to be thieves and assassins. Clerics claim to be beholden to a given God."

Titaniia says, "I can see I'm not gonna win this one, but there's a huge difference to me. I think it will hurt roleplay, not help it."

Kuromaku asks, "Fine. So it's OK to be a General in an army, but not a Knight?"

Titaniia says, "Yes."

Hyoko says, "Hmmm. I shall have to look at every warrior every time I meet them now to see what I am to call them at that particular moment."

Kuromaku says, "I see."

Pyranth says, "I would have to disagree Tani. There is simply no way for a player to become a knight in the game as it sits now."

Titaniia says, "Unless NPCs are gonna come around and appoint people generals, then there is a difference. Well, Pyranth, maybe that should change."

Kuromaku says, "I think that subjectively awarded titles are a problem, and WILL be avoided where possible. They cause nothing but accusations of favoritism and complaints."

Kerl says, "I can see where Titaniia is coming from, there is quite a roleplaying value to some arduous task or something required to become a knight of a certain order. Has there been any thought as to something being required to become a knight, or a scout, etc.? Not simply picking? One could be a scout, which would be easier to attain, and aspire to knighthood."

Kuromaku says, "All possible, Kerl. But, again, opinion, which is in NO way taking away from the Gryphons and their task, nor who they are. I think that GM awarded stuff generally causes problems."

Titaniia says, "But I am sick of people showing up in town, saying ‘I'm a knight of the empire’ and then leading people on bogus roleplay that is all designed to make themselves famous and leads nowhere. I have no problem with making up quests and roleplay events. I have a horrible problem with them when they affect the history of the lands as it is being developed by the GMs."

Kuromaku says, "Tiny, we aren't going to stop that. It's their game, too."

Kinshack says, "There's no such thing as bogus roleplay. Roleplay in its own essence is ‘bogus.’ It's play. It's acting. I can roleplay a lying scoundrel who comes and says he's a knight for personal fame and fortune, or I can do my best to roleplay a knight who aspires to the ideal."

Kuromaku says, "And it hurts no one if everyone believes the storyline, and no GM supports it. And if everyone has fun, who cares?"

Titaniia says, "It hurts the people who are trying to support the GM storylines to the best of their ability."

Kuromaku says, "It is the GM's job to police it."

Thrudh says, "The only time that it causes an issue is when it is in direct conflict with something the GM's are working with."

Hyoko asks, "Is it your intention that these kits be available to anyone in the Warriors' Guild, or only to ones who have attained certain stature?"

Kuromaku says, "I don't know, Hyoko. I DO know that you won't be able to change the kits."

Titaniia asks, "Change how?"

Kuromaku says, "I was a knight. Now I'm just a mercenary. You may be a black knight, but a knight's a knight."

Cryheart says, "Once we commit...."

Kuromaku says, "Yup. No change. I don't want players min-maxing."

Aonghus says, "I've a suggestion. Have the kits something you pick from the start. So, If I chose ‘Knight,’ I'd always be working towards that one. But the titles change with your expertise in the guild. So, until I'm a rank so-and-so member, I'm a ‘Page.’ Then at so-and-so, I remain a Squire until I hit the next landmark of the path. And the final aspiration at Mastery be ‘Knight.’ That way, you've EARNED the knighthood."

Kuromaku says, "All possible."

Titaniia says, "Include a hard quest that somehow would be hard to cheat on for the final title, and I'd be happy with it."

Thrudh asks, "This would all theoretically be after all guilds are implemented?"

Kuromaku says, "Mmmm.... I don't know. Depends. Giacomo liked the idea quite a bit."

Hyoko says, "Changing obvious titles would cause more unrest in the lands than anything done so far, I think. Maybe it should wait until all Guilds are done."

Kuromaku says, "I'm not sure that the kits are Guild-related."

Thrudh says, "You shouldn't need to be a guild member, really. Me being a barbarian has nothing to do with the Guild."

Kuromaku says, "I agree, Thrudh. While there may be Guild IMPACT, it's not a Guild thing, per se."

Aonghus says, "It could be based on fame. That way Fame actually serves a real purpose."

Kuromaku says, "I dislike fame in all its uses. It's a pointless statistic."

Aonghus says, "I don't see any real use for it, yet."

Kuromaku says, "It's an old system."

Aonghus says, "But it would be a shame if it were put into the topic of experience gain, because then the powerhunters would get it, and RPers who seldom hunt would get stuck."

Kuromaku says, "I was thinking more like tasks, along the lines of Voln, but random tasks. So there isn't a ‘How to be a knight in 30 seconds’ FAQ out in a week."

Kinshack says, "That'd be nice Kuromaku, because people would be doing these tasks for a simple roleplaying benefit, not much of a power gain, but on that line I'd suggest not even offering 'modifiers' to guild skills because people will pick knight or mercenary or barbarian for the wrong reasons."

Kuromaku says, "No."

Thrudh says, "Though I'd think there'd need to be some grandfathering. Seeing Page Welan running around for the next 3 years while he tries to master his kit would be a little odd."

Kuromaku says, "That's fine."

Aonghus asks, "True...if it's not Guild-related, how does it help Guild skills?"

Kuromaku says, "It doesn't help/hurt guild skills, per se. It's a modifier due to WHO you are. Barbarians' nature makes 'em better berserkers, but they aren't all that interested in disarming. A knight might be better suited to disarm, but not berserk."

Aonghus asks, "Yes, but if they don't plan to be a Guild member, where's the help in that?"

Kuromaku says, "It isn't ABOUT help. It's about choosing who you are, and what it means."

Thrudh says, "They don't have to take advantage of any Guild modifiers if they don't wish."

Aonghus says, "I know that. For me, it doesn't matter. The title and RP is all that counts. But facing reality, a lot will be whimpering about how it's ‘just a name.’"

Kuromaku says, "Perhaps certain taverns won't allow barbarians inside. Perhaps merchants won't serve mercenaries."

Thrudh says, "Maybe barbarians can stay out in the cold longer."

Kuromaku says, "Maybe they can. Maybe each kit has an unusual ability that is less than combat-useful but more than useless. Barbarians handle cold. Mercenaries get a benefit at merchants. Knights get the benefit of the doubt by the constable. Like that."

Titaniia asks, "’Course, what kinda assassin would have a title that said ‘assassin?’ If you have an assassins kit it should give other titles at random."

Kuromaku says, "Perhaps assassins can choose any other title."

Thrudh says, "I'd really like to see the racial issue made more important. I liked the merchant that only allowed dwarven folk in."

Kuromaku says, "All that merchant succeeded in doing was getting mini-dwarves running in. Was increasing the amount of dwarves being rolled up that day. And when he shifted it to 5 or older, He got folks standing outside getting paid to buy stuff for others."

Kinshack says, "Heh, in a merchant like that, make it so only dwarves can use the items properly."

Blaqtar says, "Or they blow up when handed off"

Titaniia says, "Or a merchant with stuff that is automatically engraved with the name of the person who buys it."

Kuromaku says, "OK, let's wrap up. Thanks for coming. Next few weeks are gonna be tough. We'll let you know if something breaks before then."