Informal Gathering of Warriors 7/11/98
With Special thanks to Lord Kuromaku and Lord Hyoko
[Kuromaku's Dojo]
Diffuse light streams in through the ricepaper shoji screens which enclose this large room. Thick cotton-wrapped tatami mats cover the polished pine floor. Wooden weapon racks are set against the walls filled with assorted weapons, both rattan and metal. You also see a low pine table with a chaya of warm sake on it, an elegant freestanding bamboo cage and a sliding screen.
Also in the room: Lord Dalimar (seated), Lord Ruffelin (seated), Lord Strathe (seated), Lord Rollocks (seated), Lord Neq (seated), Lady Allisande (seated), Lady Ingrid, Lord Dracoblood (seated), Lord Pyranth (seated), Lord Brutii (seated), Lord Thrudh (seated), Lady Lauranathalasa (seated), Lord Gaq (seated), Lord Gigantuous (seated), Lord Khazaan (seated), Lady Titaniia (seated), GameMaster Lord Kuromaku
Obvious exits: none.
You see Lord Kuromaku Hikoemon the Giantman Warrior.
He appears to be in his 80's, has short, straight black hair, dark eyes, and black skin.
He is in good shape.
He is holding a claidhmore in his right hand.
He is wearing a ruby amulet, a dark shirt, a jade-inlaid sheath, a large sack, a crafter's
apron, an ancient enruned urnon key, some dark trousers, a dark silk satchel, a dark hood,
a gold ring, a blackened mesh belt, a crystal amulet, and a heavy backpack.
Kuromaku says, "Quiet down, please. Rules are as follows. When I'm speaking, no one else is. When one of you is speaking, no one else is. If you wish to speak, please raise your hand, and you will be recognized. Please keep actions down to a minimum, as it makes the logs difficult to edit later. Lord Hyoko currently has logs of the previous meetings. Ask him, if you wish copies, and he's willing to distribute. The discussions that take place in here are out of character. The knowledge that you carry off is not. If you wish to distribute it, it's your business how. Topics for today are: The recent GLD NEWS, and opinions. Ambushing. And lastly, discussion on adding ranks to the Guild. Right. Let's get started."
Kuromaku asks, "Has anyone NOT read the GLD NEWS?"
Rollocks says, "Kuromaku, you were kind enough to read it to me before, but you could ye repeat it so it is fresh in my mind"
DATELINE JULY 7, 1998
The Master of the Guild has issued an announcement in regards to the Guild Oath and recent events which have brought some of its meaning into question. The Master's statement follows:
"It is unfortunate to have to mention this, and I do so with a heavy heart. It has always been my belief that warriors can and should be trusted to do the right thing. The recent upward trends of warriors stealing weapons with Disarm, Tackling fellow adventurers with intent to do harm, or using Warcries to the detriment of fellow Citizens of Elanthia has proven me uncategorically wrong."
"From this point forward, let it be said that ANY member of the Warrior Guild who uses a Guild Skill to steal a weapon, intentionally bring harm to a person, or prevent a person from defending themselves appropriately in combat situations will find themselves expelled from the Guild."
"It pains me that such things need to be said. But given that I must say them, I do so with the utmost urgency. I will, without hesitation, expel any warrior who violates this decree. Never let it be said again that you were not so warned."
"To those warriors who are shocked that this announcement is necessary, I apologize for offending your committment and honor."
"I wish you all the very best of luck."
END OF NEWS BULLETIN
Kuromaku says, "Opening comments: This is now the law. I will enforce it where necessary. It always WAS the law, and, unfortunately, it had to be explicitly stated for it to make sense. Before you make all sorts of comments about it, I'd like you to go back, and replace the phrase "Guild Skills" with "Spells." Then read it again. Then raise your hand if you have comments."
Dalimar asks, "When, did the orginal concept of guild skills as Role Playing Tools get thrown out the window and burned? Because they sure aren't hunting skills."
Kuromaku says, "When people started killing people with them."
Dalimar says, "Your, new 'enforcement' makes the skills pointless."
Kuromaku says, " Then don't use them. I've stated my position on Guild Skills before, Dalimar."
Dalimar says, "And now I'm stating mine."
Kuromaku says, "State away."
Dalimar says, "They are Role Playing tools. As of some misuse, they may or may not be used to kill."
Kuromaku says, "I see. Then I should remove all the combat benefit from them?"
Dalimar exclaims, "What combat benifit?! NO skill have I ever been able to use in a hunting sitiuation to aid me in any way. ONLY in Role Playing."
Kuromaku says, "I see. Perhaps you should stop being a rogue, and start being a warrior, then."
Dalimar says, "Your welcome to your opinion Kuromaku, and insulting me is rather childish. I train to survive, and I have. You can't argue with my success, but the skills are tools."
Kuromaku says, "Then the idea that they have no combat benefit shows it. It's clear that being able to disarm some creatures, knock them down, or stun them is a combat benefit."
Dalimar says, "They lack the power nessecary to be combat effective. It would be, if we had the skill high enough to acomplish that, but creatures are tweaked and retweaked till we can't."
Kuromaku says, "I think you'd find a number of people disagree."
Thrudh says, "I use Tackling virtually every hunt, and depending on what I'm hunting, even every creature."
Allisande says, "Warcry allows me to remain a twohander."
Kuromaku says, "Because you choose to hide and ambush every creature and have a spellcaster by your side. That's fine, completely viable, but don't tell every other warrior that it isn't. Many warriors use those skills daily to hunt. That you don't doesn't make them useless."
Dalimar says, "My style is my style, and my wife has nothing to do with that, and if you actually watched me hunt, you’d see I don't. You'd see I don't hide and ambush all but the most deadly of creatures because I have no other choice. If they see me, I'm a red stain. So stop trying to make an example of me."
Kuromaku says, "As you wish, Dalimar. You made a broad generalization. Defend it. I fail to see your point."
Dalimar says, "It has no bearing on the fact the the skills are meant to be not only a hunting tool, which, in my opinion, they are still sorely lacking, but are to be a Role Playing aid, which, in effect of your new policy, has just been eliminated."
Kuromaku says, "Your point is that these skills are not combat benefits. I disagree."
Dalimar says, "No. My point is they are a Role Playing aid."
Kuromaku says, "They are a combat benefit in most cases. That they provide roleplaying latitude is undeniable."
Dalimar says, "I'll stipulate that they can be."
Kuromaku says, "I don't need your approval. They are."
Dalimar says, "However, I find them lacking in that role, sadly, but that’s my opinion."
Kuromaku says, "They could be more powerful indeed, but to what end? They're useless to you, right?"
Gigantuous says, "At times, playing around with friends, we tackle each other. Will that still be allowed or does this say that we cannot even in fun use these skills like Tackle and Warcry? I do use them from time to time as role playing tools. Just need a clarification. Thank you. Meaning kidding around with friends. I don't want to be paranoid <g>."
Kuromaku says, "Excuse me Gigantuous, I'll answer your question in a moment."
Dalimar says, "No, you don't need my approval, but your closed mind on the matter only makes things more problematic. Giacomo orginally set them up as Role Playing aids, in which fashion they function excellently. I would like Giacomo's take on the matter. Have you spoken with him?"
Kuromaku says, "Yes, I have. At length. And he said it's about time someone dealt with this."
Dalimar asks, "Yet, we only hear from you? Why can we not hear from him?"
Kuromaku says, "Because he's busy working on another Guild. This Guild is mine."
Dalimar says, "Perhaps. My point being, you’re stripping the Role Playing value from them, and thats wrong."
Kuromaku says, "I'm doing nothing of the sort."
Dalimar says, "You are in my opinion."
Kuromaku says, "You are in a serious minority of 2."
Dalimar says, "Let’s try a situation. Someone is attacking your friend with a blade. You disarm them. Then they cast a spell. You kill them. You used your skill in theory to disarm them and keep them from parrying. Under your rules they are kicked out. Unless you plan on checking every incident?"
Kuromaku says, "Gee, Dalimar, I wasn't aware that defending yourself required murder. But if it does, no, the Guild Law doesn't prevent that."
Dalimar says, "Try defending yourself some time. You will often kill by mistake. It happens."
Kuromaku says, "I do daily."
Brutii says, "I can see that there is a problem with misuse of Guild skills. There is a problem with misuse of every aspect of things you can do in Gemstone, period. I just hope that the higher-ups in SIMU don’t overreact and dumb down the game to the point where it could be rated G."
Kuromaku asks, ""
Titaniia says, "If they were dumbing down the game we would see, "Hyoko is attempting to tackle you. To allow him to do so, type GLD ALLOW."
Dalimar says, "It will be there soon, Tani."
Kuromaku says, "Let's make a few things clear, shall we? Folks, we still raise our hands here. Dalimar, you recently disarmed, warcried, and killed a seated player, who did not attack you. Justify it."
Dalimar says, "I took off his hands."
Kuromaku says, "And killed him. Justify it."
Dalimar says, "it killed him as a result."
Kuromaku says, "Mmmhmm. And somehow that's roleplaying?"
Dalimar says, "I was attempting to restrain his ability to cast, and, as a result, he died."
Kuromaku says, "He was not attempting to cast at you."
Dalimar says, "Yet."
Kuromaku says, "Ah. Kill everyone, as they might kill you. He had no spell prepped. He was infusing."
Dalimar says, "You’re being close minded, Kuromaku. You’re failing to see that I wasn't attemping to kill him."
Kuromaku says, "You failed in your attempt."
Dalimar says, "Obviously. Had I wanted to kill him outright, I would have hit his head or neck, not his hands."
Kuromaku says, "And even after you had been arrested for the act..."
Dalimar says, "I came back."
Kuromaku says, "And would have killed him again, if not restrained by GMs."
Dalimar says, "And asked for his apology again. You’re welcome to that assumption, Kuromaku."
Kuromaku says, "Everyone else thought you were, including your wife. So I'm not alone in that assumption."
Dalimar says, "Yes. I roleplayed rather well, then. If people could read my mind it wouldn't be role playing."
Kuromaku asks, "And this is what you need Guild Skills for?"
Dalimar says, "It allowed me the chance to RP that out."
Kuromaku asks, "It helped you kill a seated opponent who wasn't attacking you? Don't know, Dalimar. That's a stretch."
Dalimar says, "In my case, I would say I over-used them, yes. We are also talking extremes, Kuromaku."
Kuromaku says, "Fine. Roleplaying-wise then, would you think that your behavior reflects poorly on the guild?"
Dalimar says, "Mine in that case, yes. Then why on Earth shouldn't they throw you out?"
Dalimar says, "I'm not denying that fact, but its not the point. The point is that you’re saying you’re removing that choice from us entirely."
Kuromaku says, "Not at all, Dalimar. You have the choice. If you choose to risk being thrown out, then do what you will. Just like murder. If you wish to risk being arrested, go for it. You CAN use them, but you're now accountable. I'm sorry I made you accountable for your actions, Dalimar."
Dalimar says, "We have always been accountable."
Kuromaku says, "No. NOW you are."
Dalimar says, "No, I always have been."
Kuromaku asks, "Really? From whom? Who kept you in line? Who holds you accountable?"
Dalimar says, "You don't know me Kuromaku. From myself. And if you knew Dalimar at all, you'd understand. Ask those here."
Kuromaku says, "I think if I did, you might be truly surprised."
Dalimar says, "I might be, and you might be. It’s a Role Played sytem of honor. In the action in question he dealt with someone who had no honor."
Kuromaku says, "I see."
Gaq says, "Dalimar's point earlier about the viability of the skills while hunting. I can see the use to most warriors, but perhaps there may be scope to improve the skills' effectiveness a bit more as we get older. Certainly pyrothags were tough to disarm/tackle/yell at when I was 10 years older than them. Any plans to beef up things a bit as we age?"
Kuromaku says, "Already done, but I think we're discussing Dalimar's opinion that he's accountable to no one but himself, in regards to his Guild Skills."
Allisande says, "With all due respect, I'd prefer to hear Gig's question answered."
Kuromaku says, "As would I, Allisande, but I want this issue gone first."
Gigantuous says, "Well, my question and comments actually cover this situation too that is being discussed. May I comment?"
Kuromaku says, "Sure, why not."
Gigantuous says, "Thank ye. Okay, I have been in these lands many a year and not as old as some of you but have always been honorable. But at what price does honor come down to? Honor in my opinion does not say you can murder. I have mediated several of the problems in the past as a Guildmaster as have some of you, and what it comes down to is the following. There was hardly any accountability outside of a Guildmaster stepping in to solve these problems, and I, for one, and I have stated this before, that I will not encourage or murder anyone else with my skills. So we come to the question on roleplaying. Now I don't care if you are in the guild or outside the guild. If you want to murder someone, expect in cases the responsibility that comes with it whether you are 5 or 105. The use of guild skills to murder or harass another is not allowed under any conditions. This has been an unwritten rule since guild was started"
Kuromaku says, "A written rule, actually. Now it's explicit instead of implicit."
Gigantuous says, "It is now, as Lord Kuromaku pointed out, being enforced which I would have to agree on. Now on roleplaying in general. In my original question, can we still play in fun with our friends with Tackle and Warcry, for example?"
Kuromaku asks, "What do you think? From this point forward, let it be said that ANY member of the Warrior Guild who uses a Guild Skill to steal a weapon, intentionally bring harm to a person, or prevent a person from defending themselves appropriately in combat situations will find themselves expelled from the Guild."
Gigantuous says, "I believe so. For example, in town."
Kuromaku asks, "Really? Where does it say that?"
Gigantuous says, "I would never try any of my offensive skills outside of town at all. Okay, what you are saying is that no use of any of our skills can be used, say, in the following example. My friend, Thrudh, here and I are playing around in, say, Silvergate, and he tackles me and I warcry him. That is roleplaying."
Kuromaku asks, "Who dies?"
Gigantuous says, "No one."
Kuromaku asks, "Who got injured?"
Kuromaku asks, "Where's the combat situation?"
Gigantuous says, "Well, that is an open book there."
Kuromaku says, "No, it's not."
Gigantuous says, "Because warcries they can't be injured. Worst can happen they are stunned."
Kuromaku says, "Read the lines at face value. From this point forward, let it be said that ANY member of the Warrior Guild who uses a Guild Skill to steal a weapon, intentionally bring harm to a person, or prevent a person from defending themselves appropriately in combat situations will find themselves expelled from the Guild.""
Kuromaku asks, "Steal a weapon. Anyone disagree with that one?"
Gigantuous says, "nope don't disagree"
Kuromaku says, "Intentionally bring harm to a person. That is, out and out try to hurt them."
Gigantuous asks, "Now, is playing around with my friend, Thrudh, considered intentional harm is my question?"
Kuromaku asks, "Are you trying to injure him?"
Gigantuous says, "Nope."
Kuromaku asks, "Are you trying to kill him?"
Gigantuous says, "Not on your life"
Kuromaku says, "Gigantuous, you're being a snert. You can read just fine."
Gigantuous says, "No, I'm not."
Gigantuous blushes and babbles a few incoherent words, looking sincerely flustered.
Allisande says, "You can't use guild skills as a means to get around the rules of the game. Killing, stealing, all of the things that have been written out of spell codes and whatnot, don't use guild skills to give you an advantage in breaking rules."
Gigantuous says, "I agree. But in last comment, no using Guild skills to justify honor to murder. NO."
Rollocks asks, "Is it permissible to use Guild skills to fight in a duel if, say, a warrior were to challenge a warrior to a duel where they clearly agree everything goes, kicking, biting, Guild skills, and it’s clear it’s a fight to the death?"
Kuromaku says, "Sure, if you don't get caught."
Rollocks asks, "Caught? What does that have to do with the oath?"
Kuromaku says, "Tree falling in the forest, Rollocks. If I don't catch you, and I can't prove it..."
Rollocks says, "I want to know if that violates the interpretation that the oath has."
Kuromaku says, "Yes, it does."
Titaniia says, "Ok, this is gonna take a few sentences, bear with me. I think we are all concerned that the Guild not be Disneyfied. We want to use our best judgement in deciding when and how to use our skills. That said, we all know for a fact that if enough people complain to Simu about the misuse of any skill, spell or what have you, it WILL be dumbed down, and it won't be dumbed down in a way that will allow us to make the call. It will be dumbed down in a way that will have us typing GLD ACCEPT, or GLD ALLOW, or what have you. If we just enforce the Oath we can stop that from happening and take away any wind from anyone's complaint about warriors having an unfair advantage in combat."
Kuromaku looks as if he were concentrating for a second, then a devious grin spreads across his face.
Kuromaku looks as if he were concentrating for a second, then a devious grin spreads across his face.
Titaniia says, "That can't be good."
Melindeth appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Ingrid asks, "I agree that Guild skills should not be used to conduct dishonorable acts, just as other Guild skills when they come should be equally controlled, but my question is in regards to controlled instances of combat such as Helden Hall house brawls where death does occur and Guild skills can be used to bring about this death. Would this be considered to be action such as breaking the Guild code of honor?"
Kuromaku says, "Yes."
Ingrid says, "I feel I must disagree with that, then."
Kuromaku says, "You can disagree if you like."
Ingrid says, "Then tell me why?"
Titaniia says, "It’s a case of a few people ruining it for the rest of us, Ingrid. Can't have two sets of rules, one for good people and one for bad people."
Ingrid says, "Our brawls are of honor as the Hall is and contained within our own home with everyone's consent who is taking part."
Dalimar says, "Won't change, Big Brother has spoken. The law is the law."
Ingrid asks, "Then may I ask who is controlling this new law? Will it be based on complaints or god intervention?"
Kuromaku says, "Yes. I'm the person who's enforcing it."
Ingrid says, "I understand that, but is your enforcement based on complaints or what you see?"
Kuromaku says, "It will be based on both. Not on the word of another, however."
Ingrid says, "Then I'd just like to say that if I wanted to feel like a child I certainly wouldn't be here."
Kuromaku says, "Curious, as this place seems to have become a kindergarten."
Ingrid says, "Well I certainly do feel like a scolded child who was just watching the kids fight."
Kuromaku exclaims, "Of course you do! Anyone with a brain does! The fact is that people lately have made it so I HAVE to say something! I've got dozens of kids disarming folks in the cats and walking away with weapons. I've got older warriors killing seated opponents and thinking they're above the law. And I'm getting tired of getting the 100s of letters from NON-warriors telling me that SOMEONE ought to do something about it. I've got players tackling other players in hill trolls. Like that's funny. I've got players warcrying other players in hunting areas to give a critter a chance. And what it all comes down to is: We want the right to kill other players if we want to. OK, you got it. Now someone's gonna punish it. IN game. Not by lockout. Not by banning. Or nonsense jail time. But by IN GAME result. And I bet it'll work."
Dalimar says, "You may try to make an example of me all you like."
Kuromaku says, "Big deal, Dalimar. You killed the guy, and you paid your fine in 5 minutes, and it was over. Try that in real life."
Dalimar says, "No, it’s not over. It’s far from over, as you've just made painfully clear. As you can see, I'll be paying for it for weeks, months, maybe years from now. So, get off your high horse."
Kuromaku says, "Yup. You pushed it too far. Now be a good little fiter, and be quiet. "
Dalimar says, "Not when you address me."
Kuromaku says, "I’m tired of the attitude, Dalimar."
Dalimar says, "As am I of yours. You treat us like children, so we return the favor."
Kuromaku says, "You're no better than the rest of us, so stop acting like it."
Dalimar says, "No, I'm not, and you’re not either."
Dalimar says, "I made a mistake."
Kuromaku says, "Then that's where you lose."
Dalimar says, "I screwed up, and I'm paying for it."
Allisande asks, "May I comment please?"
Kuromaku says, "Sure, Allisande."
Allisande says, "Now, obviously, I'm in favor of this. Players no longer have the ability or means to take care of ill-used powers in the lands. People with less wisdom than roltons have old characters. But allow me to remind you what occurred when spells were being misused. They made them so that they could not affect characters. They are still giving us the ability to use our judgement on this. Is that a horrifying notion? Relying on your good judgement? Then don't use them. Otherwise, we are actually being better treated than some in the past. That was my comment, and perhaps if we understood the mechanics of it a bit better we would understand how it will be implemented."
Kuromaku says, "Folks, it takes 30 seconds to make these skills non-player targettable. 30 seconds. A lot less time than discussions like these. If I wanted to turn this place into DisneyWorld, it would be the quickest option, but I don't."
Melindeth asks, "Isn't that Ophion's answer?"
Kuromaku says, "Yup. It is, except I talk about it. The fact is that you are now accountable to each other for this stuff, not some automated system, not some NPC. Yourselves."
Melindeth asks, "Will the tribunals always be made up of Gryphons?"
Khazaan says, "They were not all Gryphons."
Melindeth says, "Enough were."
Titaniia asks, "Do you feel that because a person is a Gryphon that they are somehow less honorable?"
Melindeth says, "They are treated better."
Kuromaku says, "No. They're always made up of the first 6 Guildmasters that scroll past my screen regardless. Many Guildmasters are in the Gryphons."
Lauranathalasa asks, "are we gonna raise our hands to talk?"
Kuromaku says, "We are. Thank you for bringing me back in line, Laura."
Khazaan says, "The Gryphons are made from many of the elders in the lands, and not all elders are Gryphons, but the more prominent ones are. It may seem like Gryphons get treated better, but that’s not always the case."
Kuromaku says, "I would like to apologize to all those who have been raising their hands patiently."
Neq asks, "Will this rule also affect non-threatening skills that are still considered very rude such as spitting?"
Kuromaku says, "Spitting ain't gonna be a skill much longer. But even if it were, no, it doesn't. It is a non-damaging skill."
Neq says, "I'm very tired of being spit on and not having any way of stopping them, without violence."
Kuromaku says, "Ain't gonna be an option in a few months. Spit all ya can now. Oh, NOT in my dojo."
Brutii says, "I whole heartedly support increased accountability for us. It’s not an issue to me as long as we have the option to use the skills. I love the added accountability. I was wondering about skill ranks and such. I was wondering if we could, say, maybe raise the amount of ranks available to each skill? Say from 62 to 75? And also maybe increase the rank limit to 4X level to 5X level?"
Kuromaku says, "No. It would change a lot more of the Guild system than I want to mess with right now. I AM tweaking the power of several of the skills, but not right now."
Pyranth says, "I simply ask that personal agendas be put aside and we stick to the task at hand, how to improve warriors within the framework we have. Dalimar stated the same thing to me not a few minutes ago. I apologize for making an example of him. It wasn't my intent. So I apologize."
Dalimar stands up.
Dalimar bows to Kuromaku.
Dalimar sits down.
Kuromaku bows to Dalimar.
Kuromaku says, "However, the actions remain, and Dalimar and I have discussed it in the past. So that ends that part of the scenario, as far as I'm concerned."
Khazaan asks, "With regard to what Brutii had talked about, you had stated that there would be some post-master abilities, did you not? Thrudh had asked to have a war horn that he would blow that could be heard across the realm. Could we not have a post-master warcry that would do the same thing?"
Kuromaku says, "Yes. We'll discuss that stuff once we close this issue, after ambushing, if I'm still awake."
Melindeth says, "Now I remember. I have no problem with tracking using skills PvP."
Kuromaku asks, "Tracking?"
Melindeth asks, "What if we are attacked? Myself, if someone boils me, I'll spit. I won't kill, but what about others? And I apologize if I missed something."
Allisande grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that she isn't there anymore.
Yarx appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Neq just disappeared.
Kuromaku says, "What I had hoped to do prior to the arguing was explain the NEWS, and explain what was and wasn't permitted, and how I'm going to enforce it. S'okay if I start now? The crux of the news is the middle part. From this point forward, let it be said that ANY member of the Warrior Guild who uses a Guild Skill to steal a weapon, intentionally bring harm to a person, or prevent a person from defending themselves appropriately in combat situations will find themselves expelled from the Guild. As I said before, no one debates the theft of weapons. The hard part is the next sentence. ‘Intentionally bring harm to a person,’ OK, what does that mean, really? It means if you use your skill to harm someone intentionally, you're out. Think about it. Harm someone intentionally. It says ‘harm someone intentionally,’ which to me reads, ‘If someone attacks me, and I use tackle to stop them, I'm OK.’ It DOESN'T read, ‘If someone swings at me, and I tackle them, warcry them to stun them, then behead them,’ because that's taking it a bit too far. The fight is over after the player's downed and stunned. Why kill them? What are you proving? Further, I don't think that anyone tackling someone who was swinging at them would get much more than a ‘nice work.’"
Waldo2 appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Geijon appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Ingrid says, "I'll give an example then. In our challenge matches in Helden Hall, Yarx likes to disarm his opponents. As this is a combat situation, would he still be able to do so if the outcome was death? With both parties consenting to the match."
Kuromaku says, "No. I don't feel that Helden's "duels" match with the Guild Oath, but that's for Helden to decide."
Ingrid says, "So he would be expelled if he did so?"
Kuromaku says, "I respect their right to duel to the death, but I don't agree with it, and the Oath doesn't account for it."
Ingrid says, "Well, if the gods had seen fit to give us the arena we orginally asked for, this wouldn’t be a question, but am I to understand that using the skills in our combat to the death would result in expulsion?"
Kuromaku says, "If Helden wished to have their fights in the Pugilism Ring it wouldn't be an issue, either."
Ingrid says, "But not all of Helden's members are warriors."
Kuromaku says, "Then those members can't use their Warrior Guild skills either. That’s silly. Fact is that duels to the death mean nothing."
Ingrid says, "In our challenge matches combatants are allowed to use whatever skills, spells or items they choose. I find it being called silly insulting."
Kuromaku says, "No, Ingrid. I said that non-warriors can't use their Warrior Guild skills either. This Guild is designed to represent death as an adversary, or a friend, not something to be embraced, dragged to the nearest cleric, and ignored. The fact that death means nothing to the game at large means nothing to the mentality of the Guild."
Ingrid says, "As you have never participated in one of our brawls, please refrain from passing judgement on what they mean to us."
Kuromaku says, "Ingrid, stop taking everything I say as an attack."
Ingrid says, "Then stop attacking with every word."
Kuromaku says, "I haven't even addressed your duels. Is the purpose of your duels to kill the person in the ring? TRULY kill them? Or is it just to best each other in a test of combat skills?"
Ingrid says, "The purpose of our duels is to fight to the best of our abilities with honor, to hone our skills."
Kuromaku asks, "Answer the question as posed. Is it a fight to the death, with death being the goal? Or is it just to best each other in a test of combat skills?"
Ingrid says, "No it is not, but as we had trouble with fighting to first blood..."
Kuromaku says, "Fine. Then the fact that you are currently using death as "knockout" changes things somewhat, wouldn't you say?"
Ingrid asks, "Changes things in what way?"
Kuromaku says, "The purpose is not to kill the opponent, is it? It's to best them."
Ingrid says, "If we had an arena to fight in we would gladly fight there."
Kuromaku says, "My point exactly. The fact that Helden's ring is to the death is unfortunate. If it weren't, this wouldn't be an issue for you, would it?"
Ingrid says, "No it would not"
Kuromaku says, "Fine. Then let's pretend you have a ring that prevents said death, and leave it at that."
Ingrid says, "Fine."
Kuromaku asks, "Do you still disagree with the News?"
Ingrid says, "No, I do not. As I stated previously I believe that we should be held accountable for our honor to the Guild."
Kuromaku says, "Fine. I'll talk to Wolv about fixing your ring, then."
Dalimar says, "A side note about the rings. The Teras one. While others can enter, if you’re not a Guild member, you can't fight in it. Maybe change that? Wanted to duke it out with Nighthawk, but couldn't."
Kuromaku says, "I'd have to check the mechanics of that, Dalimar. I'm not sure I can, but if I can, I will."
Lauranathalasa says, "Suppose the warriors decide to use their skills in such a manner as intentionally harming another. Will it only be brought to the Tribunal if charges are made, or what? And also, why aren’t we allowed to use our skills in the magic contests in the gladiatorial arenas?"
Kuromaku says, "Two good questions. Firstly, if they decide such, I'll be forced to create laws in the towns explicitly preventing those actions, and I don't want to. A group being a group of snerts by consensus gets no latitude. If a House wanted to pass a law stating that they could kill anyone they wanted to, it wouldn't mean much. As for the second point, I don't know. I always fight for us to be able to. I think they think it's unfair or something. I get shouted down by 7 other gurus. It may be because the Guild Skills are not accounted for in the arena yet. The Gladiator Arena was coded well before the Guild Skills were written. Since the Arena's being recoded, I'll make sure that they're accounted for."
Titaniia says, "I still have to think that a brawling bar in the Landing would help with this issue a LOT. As well as the promises we have heard for years that the arena would be open for regular folks to use."
Kuromaku says, "Probably. I have no control over the Landing, and I feel quite honestly that a public arena is coming soon. No more to be said on that."
Titaniia asks, "Is the murder rate in the Landing higher then other areas?"
Kuromaku says, "Yes. Quite a bit so, Tiny. No murders in Pinefar or Rivers rest, a few in Icemule and Teras, and a ton in the Landing."
Titaniia says, "Brawling bar. I would have no problem with use of Guild skills in a drunken bar fight. Err, not that such a dainty warrior as I would ever do such a thing."
Kuromaku asks, "OK, can I finish up this stuff? Since we've been at it for 2 hours, and no further along? From this point forward, let it be said that ANY member of the Warrior Guild who uses a Guild Skill to steal a weapon, intentionally bring harm to a person, or prevent a person from defending themselves appropriately in combat situations will find themselves expelled from the Guild. What the gist of this is, is that if you use the skills to kill another player, or make it so a player dies due to obvious intent, you're toast."
Ruffelin asks, "So, basically, Guild skill use will be looked at the same way as abuse of spells?"
Kuromaku says, "Ah, he finally gets it."
Ruffelin says, "I always did. It's been trying to get it across to others."
Kuromaku says, "Bottom line, folks, the difference between spells and Guild Skills, is that I can take the Guild Skills away. Personally, I'd like to see all those moronic sorcerers who kill other players with spells and say, ‘Gee! I didn't KNOW Maelstrom would kill them all!’ get the thing taken away. For cryin' out loud, folks, THINK about it. Those skills are meant as COMBAT abilities. Debate all ya like as to their suitability, but the intent, IN GAME, is to make you better fighters. No different than swinging a weapon. If you can't use the stuff responsibly, it goes away. Now, then. The main difference between the Guild and sorcerers, or even plain combat, s that the Guild is a voluntary group and is entirely IN GAME. Now, before you gimme a mess of nonsense, what I mean by that is, I can't make someone not a sorcerer any more. I can't take away someone's ability to swing a sword. I can't take away someone's combat ability. But I CAN take away the Guild Skills. So it becomes a method of enforcement. I believe, strongly, in in-game punishment for in-game incidents. I don't believe in out-of-game punishments for in-game stuff. On the other hand, I don't necessarily think that the IN-game punishments we have are severe enough in most cases, except now. You mess up with the Guild, the Guild punts you. No paying a fine, no writing feedback. Does anyone disagree with the logic behind what I'm saying?"
Melindeth grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that she isn't there anymore.
Dalimar just disappeared.
Thrudh says, "I do have a question. Earlier, you said once the sorcerer (or whoever) was down and/or stunned, the fight is over."
Kuromaku says, "Should be."
Thrudh asks, "How do we get that across?"
Kuromaku says, "Say so. This fight is over."
Thrudh says, "Seems most would just wait to be unstunned and then nail us with a spell."
Kuromaku says, "Anyone who does will answer to me, and I'm notably bad on casters who don't take no for an answer."
Kuromaku says, "Rollocks, you asked if it matters. Tell you what. Convince all these people that I'm wrong."
Rollocks says, "Kuromaku, as Gameplayer I agree with most of what you have said today, but as a role player to expect people to stop in battle of honor when an opponent is stunned is making this like kindergarten. That is not the way battles were fought, and I doubt that was the way warrior guilds in the past conducted themselves."
Kuromaku says, "No expects anyone to. The Guild does. The way battles were fought was, someone died and stayed dead. That doesn't happen here."
Rollocks says, "I now understand that is the way the Guild is being run. Now, as Rollocks, I have something I'd like to say to my fellow warriors. I'm sure many of you have heard of my recent situation in which I used my Guild skills to facilitate the death of my opponent in a battle of honor. At the time I used my Guild skills to slay the scoundrel, I did not understand the meaning of our Oath. I now do. I apologize for the embarassment, if any, that my use of those skills caused. Had I understood the Oath to mean what it means, I would have used other means to battle my opponent. I am truly sorry for using my skills, and I hope my fellow warriors learn from my mistake. Thank you for listening to me."
Kuromaku says, "Allow me to translate for Rollocks who, as part of his punishment, must apologize to those assembled. Rollocks killed a player, using Guild Skills to facilitate that death. Rollocks claims it was a duel. His opponent did not. Rollocks swung first and swung last. His opponent did tag Rollocks once. He tackled his opponent twice, and killed him by swinging at him several times. As part of his punishment, he was asked to apologize to those assembled. Ah, Rollocks warcried him too, as he points out. In any case, the point is clear. He has apologized and fulfilled that part of his punishment. I understand that Rollocks has also been making himself out to be a martyr who was sacrificed for a greater cause, and that a bunch of folks railroaded him. So to that, I have one comment. Uh, wrong. Sorry, Rollocks, I read too many logs. And I wanted to make sure the story was clear."
Rollocks says, "I have never stated that. I have at times felt that way though."
Kuromaku says, "Well, you've claimed that it was a duel, and only you believe that."
Rollocks says, "Since you mention it, I'm not the only one that believes that."
Kuromaku says, "And you've said more than once that the jury was biased, in spite of the fact that I chose 'em at random."
Rollocks says, "Several members on the panel have openly expressed their feelings towards me in the past and their desire to have me removed."
Kuromaku asks, "Sure, Rollocks. And several stated openly that they were going to make sure you had a fair trial and did so. It was unanimous. Shall we poll the folks again for sport?"
Rollocks says, "No need to."
Kuromaku says, "I wouldn't think so. The outcome would be the same, don't you think?"
Rollocks says, "Kuromaku, I told you that given the instructions you gave them and the intepretation you have given the Oath, they had no choice but to find me guilty. If I had been back there I would have done the same."
Kuromaku asks, "So you think that I'M to blame?"
Rollocks says, "Not at all."
Kuromaku says, "Well, gee, Rollocks, help me out. If you got railroaded, and the Tribunal wasn't to blame..."
Rollocks says, "I never said I was railroaded."
Kuromaku says, "And I'm not to blame, well, you're making a case that people wanted you to get kicked out."
Rollocks says, "To blame someone implies fault."
Kuromaku says, "Somehow, you gotta have a person who caused this. So no one's to blame? It just happened?"
Rollocks says, "Not at all."
Kuromaku says, "OK, we're going in circles."
Rollocks says, "We sure are."
Kuromaku says, "Point is, Rollocks, that you killed a guy using skills, and it wasn't a duel according to him."
Cryheart appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Rollocks says, "Well, I'll send a log of the battle to anyone who asks, and they can judge fer themselves."
Kuromaku says, "Suits me."
Kythyn appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Kuromaku asks, "Does anyone have any more comments about the GLD NEWS as it stands? Any more constructive comments can be mailed to me. Any flames can be sent to dev/null."
Rollocks says, "But as I understand the oath, NOW, whether it was a duel or not doesn't matter. I've had several people tell me they think it still allows use in consensual battles."
Kuromaku says, "Good. They're wrong. And frankly, Rollocks, it wasn't. So let's leave it at that."
Rollocks says, "As I've stated before, I don't think we will agree on that point."
Ruffelin just disappeared.
Kuromaku says, "Issue is closed. Next, ambushing. I'm removing it as a warrior skill. Nah. All I wanna discuss is whether or not we LIKE ambushing, and, if we don't, what we're willing to do about it."
Gaq says, "I don't, and loathe as I am to agree with the successful elf, I HAD to do it to survive. With hindsight, wish I'd learned two-handers. But, as we talked about before, when we were all lil' many of us thought a shield too necessary, and saw the 12/3 TP's needed, and skipped it. Sooo, I can only suggest, to make us OHE fellows less roguely and more warriorly, that CM and ambush be reasonably effective without the hiding bit. There's some good news, isn't there?"
Geijon says, "To add to Gaq's comment, I agree that hiding should not be as highly determinate as to how well you can aim your attack. If I hit something with a blast in the head or the chest and it caves either in when I aimed there, why would I need to sneak up on them to do that from behind?"
Kuromaku says, "I'm currently in a conversation with Wolv and Jaxxon. I'm trying to resolve something I believe you asked for. It's resolved. Wolv and I will create a no-death arena for Helden Hall. There will be no timeline for release, save for the fact that Helden will undeniably will be testing it for us. I cannot discuss timelines due to other issues, but I'll make sure it happens."
Rollocks just disappeared.
Dracoblood just disappeared.
Ingrid just disappeared.
Strathe just disappeared.
Yarx just disappeared.
Kuromaku says, "OK, back to ambush."
Thrudh says, "Of course we still want our aimed attacks, just not to have to hide. If there is a way to have any kind of success without hiding, warriors will take it. Even if it was something like the crit bonus was lessened, but still available to some degree, with open aiming. The point of hiding attacks being better is based on Surprise causing the opponent to be unable to defend from the attack, thus making it more deadly. On the other hand, shouldn't a skilled warrior be able to create an opening on his opponent that will give a similar effect?"
Kuromaku says, "Uh, it is."
Thrudh says, "No, there is no crit benefit from open aiming."
Kuromaku asks, "You SURE about that fiter?"
Thrudh says, "Other than hitting a more deadly place, yes."
Waldo2 says, "I seem to have felt a crit bonus from aiming at some places I sever way more by aiming than open attack."
Thrudh says, "Because heads, necks, and eyes are more deadly locations, but not because ambushing adds to the crit rank with open aiming."
Gaq says, "More simply, hide and aim, things tend to die. Don't hide and they don't. For big critters like pyros, siren lizards, etc., etc., bludgeoning them to death is impractical."
Kuromaku says, "Without revealing any proprietary information, you're wrong, Thrudh."
Thrudh says, "Then if I am wrong, the formulas are adding insignificant benefit."
Gigantuous just disappeared.
Kuromaku says, "Much less than from hiding, you mean. Yes. What I hear you asking for is parity in those or closer. Yeah, I can see that."
Thrudh says, "Just to make it a viable path. I don't want to see them equalling 2H'ers."
Kuromaku says, "I have a better idea. Boost it from open a bit, and make it impossible to hide while in melee. That's the real issue, ain't it?"
Thrudh says, "Will really hurt rogues"
Kuromaku says, "I believe I quote Ophion when I say, so? The present model is so totally unrealistic, it's silly. I'm in melee with 6 ice giants, who are swinging away madly at me in a wide open snowfield, aI suddenly disappear. This makes not a whole lot of sense."
Thrudh says, "And what will be done for them to keep them viable? I see that as a very significant downtweak to the class that is closest to us in the basement. I'm not looking to shaft rogues. Perhaps it could be significantly reduced hiding ability (requiring doubled or better), while the rest goes into armor hindrances to hiding."
Kuromaku says, "Well, I'll tell ya, Thrudh. It'll make spells like unpresence a lot more useful, and it'll make camouflage useful period. Additionally, it'll force folks to hide BEFORE a critter comes into a room, which is what an ambush IS!"
Thrudh says, "Camouflage is already useful. Insta-hide, even in places where hiding isn't normally allowed."
Kuromaku says, "Swing, move to the next room, hide. Critter walks in, ambush, move to next room, hide. That makes sense."
Thrudh says, "And someone else comes along and kills your critter."
Titaniia says, "That means instant death to a rogue in a swarm."
Kuromaku says, "Well, gee, Tiny, if they wanted to survive melee, they oughta be a fighter, OR they can train like a warrior and get the benfit of redux. Just like you. That's the point of Redux, to work for arms users. Now, who it'll hurt, really, are you guys."
Thrudh says, "Kuro, I agree that it should be extremely difficult to hide in melee. If we had an engagement system, I'd agree with impossible, but we don't. So I'd rather see it significantly penalize your hiding skill, such that those with 1x or 1.5x training can't do it. And then have heavy armor have significant penalties to hiding, so we don't have plate wearers being shadow dwellers."
Kuromaku asks, "Extremely difficult?"
Thrudh says, "Yes. Requiring 2x or better training seems plenty difficult. Will leave rogues everything except heavy armor."
Kuromaku says, " Look, Thrudh. What I'd LIKE to do is make terrain and climate affect your ability to hide."
Titaniia asks, "So, a forest would be easy, but Pinefar would be impossible?"
Kuromaku says, "How you gonna hide in flat, hard terrain without a ghillie suit?"
Thrudh says, "Can’t, just like you can't in silverbacks."
Kuromaku asks, "But running through a forest? Sure. Duck behind a tree."
Thrudh says, "I'm seeing this as a great boost to warriors, don't get me wrong, but I see it as hindering the rogues more than is necessary."
Kuromaku says, "Thrudh, we're hindering rangers, bards, warriors. In short, anyone who lives by combat."
Thrudh says, "Rogues are the primary ambushing class, though."
Kuromaku says, "Rangers are, but I won't debate it."
Thrudh says, "And they will be hit the hardest, since their class is based assuming they'll be using it."
Kuromaku says, "No, it's not. Rangers are assumed to be ambushers. Rogues can live very well without it as long as they don't want to cast. But all rogues do, of course."
Titaniia says, "Well, this is an RP point. Rooms are assumed to be huge, in some cases even miles wide. In others, small. I see the rogue as master of find the shadows and sliding into them. That's why I don't have too much problem with hiding in the same room from a critter. Also, I really hate to see them lose that roleplayed aspect of their characters."
Kuromaku asks, "Really? Even in a room such as this?
Titaniia says, "Well, I figure a rogue would point one way and then duck behind the screen. Don't get me wrong, I NEED help. You know it. We all know it. Anyone ambushing from the open is in trouble. And I'm annoyed as heck that I'm being forced to train in hiding just in case I decide to keep going on."
Kuromaku says, "By the way, I'm discussing this not in a vacuum. This is identified as a problem across the board. It's increasing the bar for all hunters, and causing too much trouble. Many GMs are hashing out a solution. I know the criticism, of course. ‘But we HAVE to ambush, because the critters are too tough, or we can't learn!’ So if I remove the ability, I have to increase the ability for critters to be whacked, and if I do that, then the spell casters can crit 'em too easily. So I have to lower THAT. See where this is leading? I KNOW it's a difficult problem, folks."
Gaq says, "I'd love to be able to fight efectively, toe-to-toe with my quarry ,yelling my lungs off ,and still be able to cut off its legs and head and ,and, you think we might be able to work something like that out by perhaps increasing the effectiveness of CM?"
Kuromaku says, "All possibilities, Gaq."
Titaniia asks, "What about doing throwing some profession specific numbers into the equation?"
Kuromaku says, "No, Tiny."
Titaniia says, "Why not? If I can ask."
Kuromaku says, "Sure. I don't want to artificially boost a class. It's a lousy precedent."
Titaniia says, "I wasn't suggesting that. I was more thinking, if ambush was tweaked down, maybe it wouldn't be so tweaked down for rogues. That's just less of a downtweak."
Kuromaku asks, "So that everything is easier for rogues to kill? Lowering everyone else but rogues is the same as boosting them."
Kythyn asks, "First, a pet peeve. May we rename ambush to aimed blow, since that's what it is?"
Kuromaku says, "Yeah, we could."
Khazaan asks, "A warrior was not the one in battle that would jump out and ambush someone. He would instead walk up to them and whack them over the head with whatever he had in his hands. Ambush training for a warrior does and should allow us to hit exactly what we aim at. Why can’t a warrior see an added benefit in his ambush/aim ability?"
Kuromaku says, "He does, Khazaan."
Khazaan says, "And, as I said before by accident, by making someone hide before a critter enters, don’t you now promote camping a lot? Therefore nobody will be able to get a swing in if theres a hidden ambusher there. I can see it now, I walk into a room and hear someone cough from the shadows, I walk to the next to hear someone whistling to himself."
Kuromaku says, "I'm not promoting camping in areas where creatures swarm."
Kythyn says, "Second, I think ye address the wrong problem. Tis not hide that is broken (though I see yer point). Tis the added crit ranks a hider gets."
Kuromaku says, "And we're messing with a bunch of symptoms, not the cause. See, the cause is balance. In theory, a 30th-level sorcerer with MD, a 30th-level ambushing rogue, and a 30th-level warrior from open all ought to do the same damage, right?"
Kythyn says, "Depends upon the target."
Kuromaku says, "I think Kythyn has the point. Crit factors have, in the past, been arbitrarily assigned based on some MUCH younger players. At 20th level they ARE all about the same. Test it."
Kythyn says, "Is it feasible to decrease the added crit ranks a hider gets to below the level of a claidhmore regardless of ambush ranks, and the situation resolves itself?"
Kuromaku says, "No."
Thrudh says, "Just forces every warrior to be a 2H'er, Kythyn."
Kythyn says, "Nae at all, Thrudh."
Kuromaku says, "And allows for no scalability. That's where we ARE, Kythyn. A rogue from hiding hits as hard as a claid at 20th level. Try it. So what of the 60th level rogue?"
Kythyn says, "I don't see yer point, Master. It is NOT where we are. Amerlise with 200 ranks of ambush has more crit ranks than any warrior with a claidh can generate."
Kuromaku says, "Uh-huh. So how does training in ambush help past 20th level? Of course she does!"
Gaq says, "There are warriors with such ambush skills."
Kuromaku says, "Ah, now we have the problem. So to compete warriors need to train like that, too."
Kythyn says, "Not every skill need be linearly scalable. So ye're not optimized. If ye can hunt, ye're not "screwed". My point stands, master. It is not hide that is the fix. It is the crit rank adder of an ambush. I am unclear why that cannae be changed."
Kuromaku says, "And I think you're wrong."
Kythyn says, "Then prove me wrong."
Kuromaku says, "Because if I DO adjust that, then I have to adjust everything else."
Kythyn says, "Such as critters? Goodness, I hope so."
Kuromaku asks, "Critters? You WISH it were only that."
Kythyn asks, "Ye ever hit a pyro in the ear with a claidh? Might as well hit his club."
Kuromaku asks, "You ever design a critter?"
Kythyn says, "Nae, ye won't let me."
Kuromaku says, "OK, let's go through the exercise in theory. I make a critter. First, I assign a base AS/DS/TD. Then, I calculate max damage a player can deliver to the critter, and figger how long I want it to last. Make CPs. Then I have to assign armor."
Kythyn asks, "Any player or a class?"
Kuromaku says, "Ahhh, you caught the trick. Can't catch you. Too bright. If I make it so that warriors can kill it, what happens?"
Kythyn says, "Wizards fry them."
Kuromaku says, "So I have to up the anti-wizard stuff. Oh, gee, now sorcerers are MDing 'em. Gotta add some blues."
Kythyn says, "The underlying design issue is ye need a DS fer each attack type. Bolt, spirit, swing. Sure, Kythyn. Ya GOT that. NOW, I have to add one more factor. I have to assume that the player in question has all possible spells and signs and abilities AND is ambushing from hiding WITH a claid. Know why? BECAUSE YOU DO!"
Kythyn says, "That sounds like how we got pyros, and, no, I don't."
Kuromaku exclaims, "SOMEONE IS! And because of it, I hafta make it a challenge for HIM!"
Kythyn says, "So ye design fer the optimum hunter and let the rest of us retire then?"
Kuromaku asks, "Yeah. Sucks, right? I agree. That's the problem I face daily. So what I'm trying to do is this. Let's take down ambushing, so it ain't so quick. Let's make some spells self-cast. Let's decrease some abilities. Let's down-tweak some weaponry. And even the playing field. so that the differential between a one-hander from open and a two-handed claid wielder from hiding isn't a crit factor multiplier of something like 80. It's actually 160, but you don't know that."
Kythyn says, "So cap the hider to the claidh level."
Kuromaku asks, "What about a hiding claid user?"
Kythyn says, "They get the benefit of two-handed impact without the risk of no shield. Cap them at claidh level as well. What's the problem?"
Kuromaku asks, "What about spell casters? Cap them at claid level?"
Kythyn says, "Use a different defense for bolts."
Kuromaku says, "Uh-uh."
Geijon says, "Hmm had several things. Will save the one so I don't change the subject. Since Ophion, Banthis and Aephir have mentioned doing away with DC and evil eye pushdowns, etc., your ideas on eliminating how some creatures are made and down-tweaking some things is feasible as a course of action. Other question I'll hold so I don't run us into new territory yet."
Kythyn grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that she isn't there anymore.
Kuromaku says, "Yes, It's feasible, Geijon. I need to know what you THINK of that stuff."
Geijon says, "Well, since evil eye and DC pushdowns are being used to help sorcerors, I see no reason why downtweaking some aspects to help us would hurt. But we need to consider all factors. Take into account rogues, rangers, us, etc., as we are doing. Self-cast spells. How do they affect us? Depending which spells will be self-cast. Will critters CS be lowered? Will we get mauled? Will rogues get mauled? Dalimar has stated, in the Rift, ANYONE gets hit by a spell, poof! Not even every single spell in existence will save you."
Kuromaku says, "Not if we adjust things to suit. That's true NOW. Think about the 8 years of upward spiral which caused critters like that to be created. Sad, isn't it?"
Geijon says, "Well, since we're on subject. Since the roof is so out of whack here. Reality, silliness, unrealistic. 150th level is the roof any adventure will obtain. That will happen within 2 years, so there are some long-term issues that need to be addressed also. Rift solves short term."
Khazaan says, "Phillipa is 141."
Geijon says, "Empaths don't count. Empaths have serious problems. They should NOT be able to learn 90% faster then everyone else. And all they do is provide a convenient service. They aren’t the centers of gravity."
Brutii says, "It seems to me that all of these problems with hiding and ambushing, as well as other problems or inadequacies, they all stem from the lack of a new engagement system, something simple and easy to use and interact with yet offering more complexity, such as the SIMU game Hercules & Xena has. Basically, I'd think that any long-term fixes would revolve around a new ES."
Kuromaku says, "Eesh. Tell ya what. You convince all the SGMs and PMs that we need an ES, and that someone will pay to do it, and then convince them that everyone won't quit as a result of one, and I'm in."
Brutii says, "Um, I'd rather solve the Gordian Knot. At least I'd stand a chance."
Waldo2 says, "I will give you a bit of history on Engagement system. I remember the old days, six months into Gemstone. Elvanion told me the warrior class would get no where without major changes, and an engagement system was coming. That was a long time ago. There have been improvements, but we are still waiting for parity."
Thrudh says, "This change to open aiming. Will it be based solely on ambush skill?"
Kuromaku asks, "What change to open aiming?"
Thrudh says, "Or on CM too? Proposed change, snert."
Kuromaku says, "I proposed nothing. I was throwing it out for debate."
Thrudh says, "Then, in theory, it would be based on, based on what? Just ambushing? Just curious where this is heading, in theory. Open aiming accuracy is both CM and ambushing skill, and Aimed attack mods, and who knows what else."
Kuromaku says, "Sure, Thrudh. We can debate it all day."
Thrudh says, "Wasn't looking to debate. Just wanting to know what your idea was."
Kuromaku says, "We need to agree that it should happen. How it happens is the simple part."
Kuromaku asks, "Hyoko?"
Hyoko asks, "Would it make things easier if AS/DS were just used for physical attacks? If elemental spells and such had their own attack/defense?"
Kuromaku asks, "Didn't Kythyn just ask that?"
Hyoko says, "Perhaps I was not paying attention to how she asked it."
Kuromaku says, "Easier, probably. Possible, no. Would require a major mechanics change."
Gaq says, "Bearing in mind that we don't get to retrain retrospectively, you think us "Teef" types ought to still keep training in hiding?"
Kuromaku says, "I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I have no idea. Gaq, my PC sucks. Don't ask me for advice. Sad, isn't it? Even though I KNOW all this stuff, my PC still can't hunt."
Khazaan says, "Any thoughts on my suggestion to take the reduction we see, invert it and add it to our attack as a DFIncr? Won’t be much but it would be something that might make someone not hide and ambush."
Kuromaku says, "Oughta kill you for fun. We ain't gonna raise warrior AS. Full stop. No chance. No."
Khazaan says, "I didn’t say anything about AS."
Kuromaku says, "Ain't gonna do it. No. None."
Khazaan says, "Did anyone hear me say AS?"
Kuromaku says, "Nicht. Nada."
Khazaan says, "I said DF, not AS. If a warrior can’t get his AS up high enough to hit it, it won’t come into play. It’s not an AS. It’s not an AS adder, rather."
Kuromaku says, "You want to do more damage when you hit."
Khazaan says, "Just from open."
Kuromaku says, "Lemme think on that."
Khazaan says, "It’s not a lot."
Titaniia says, "Ok, two real quick things. I remembered. First, if you ask me, the perfect OHE meat is seekers. What I don't understand is why we're not being crowded out by the other professions up there. Is it because of the terain? Or just because its too hard to get to and other classes aren't as desperate?"
Kuromaku says, "Exactly, Tiny. Because no one could be bothered to hunt in the freezing cold."
Titaniia says, "And if so, make more terrible areas that fiters can learn in, then."
Kuromaku says, "Plan on it."
Titaniia says, "Secondly, if ya ask me, big part of the problem is critter CP's. Not even so much ambush and other issues, though I guess CP's are being based on em. Give a critter a thousand CP's, and I'm gonna stand there till I'm near dead whacking it."
Kuromaku asks, "Yeah, so? Prep DC, cast. So much for 1000 CPs."
Titaniia says, "Well, I just think that a lot of CPs is hurting the open-air warrior worse then anyone else. It doesn't matter to magic-users if it has that many, anyways. If tigers didn't take me ten hits to kill, I wouldn't end up triple diseased and dying with acantha in my hand."
Waldo2 just disappeared.
Geijon says, "I was wondering, to avoid needing a new ES and changing ambushing/hiding, since this is mainly a warrior problem, somewhat anyways, could it not be addressed through manuevers, and how will we recieve manuevers? By age, training in them, as like spells, etc."
Kuromaku says, "It's not just a warrior problem. It's an arms-user problem. Right now, if you swing, you'd better ambush. That's nonsense. We need to address the balance, not up the ante."
Geijon says, "Then that solution wouldn't be vera effeective. Warriors reaching 65th isn’t the problem either. It’s 70th and beyond. OHE users can hunt seekers and wind wraiths and get that far. Pyros, both golems and elementals are what we're done at."
Kuromaku says, "Sure. 'cause ya need new critters. I ain't surprised."
Lauranathalasa says, "Mebbe put ‘em in the Warrior Guild somewhere, so the other classes wont hunt ‘em?"
Kuromaku says, "Close. Maybe make an area where magic won't work AT ALL. Don't die there."
Brutii says, "As far as critters go, there seems to be a solution for older warriors there. I mean, such examples like an Ancient Roa'ter or a Giant Stone Golem or an Elder Reiver Lord. New warrior critters for older warriors just like exist for medium-age warriors. Or more greater Vruul."
Kuromaku exclaims, "Sure. Up the age of all the old critters that work!"
Brutii says, "Not up them. Just make older big brothers and sister of them in other areas."
Kuromaku says, "How about I just make some new critters not like others seen before."
Brutii says, "Oh, that would work, too. Yup."
Gaq says, "I know this is off topic, but I got to ask. Have you any idea when an alternative to fire elementals might be available? Picking boxes is too much fun for me to bear much longer."
Kuromaku says, "Dunno, Gaq. Honestly."
Gaq says, "Didn't think you would. Desperation setting in."
Thrudh says, "Just so you're sure, I think we like the idea of open aiming becoming more powerful and a reasonable alternative to hiding."
Kuromaku says, "Sure, ya like it, but how will it play in Peoria?"
Thrudh says, "There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Kuromaku says, "Lemme ask about that."
Khazaan asks, "Peoria? what about Solhaven?"
Kuromaku says, "Solhaven will never exist. I'm telling everyone to stop work on it at once. No doubt, they'll listen."
Titaniia says, "Truthfully, you do it, and rogues, rangers, bards, clerics, they are all going to raise a stink like you've never heard. And the cries of "Warriors get everything" are going to bounce off the ceiling."
Kuromaku says, "Sure we do. We also get killed more."
Khazaan says, "That’s why I had suggested what I had. It isn’t warrior-only. It’s anyone who doesn’t hide."
Kuromaku says, "It was noted."
Lauranathalasa says, "I like the idea of more damage with aimed open attack. It’s effectivenss."
Geijon says, "I was asked once what Warriors are good for. Anything we can do other classes can do, mainly. So I came up with the best answer we have. Thrudh’s pin mainly says it all. We die real good, and we get whacked a lot. So we keep empaths and clerics in business! So when asked, that’s what we're good at. Sadly, we're hard pressed to come up with something better."
Kuromaku says, "Again, not an issue. That'll be addressed in a few months, and definitively. Wanted to ask a question, briefly. Apparently, I'm getting a mess of feedback that warriors are opposed to breakage. Can I get some feedback on that?"
Brutii says, "I’m not opposed to breakage at all. I’m all for it."
Pyranth says, "Breakage is finem along with repair."
Gaq says, "I'm all for it (if we have the wherewithall to fix stuff)."
Hyoko says, "I am against breakage of a perfectly maintained weapon with one swing. However, I am for having poorly maintained weaponry break."
Kuromaku says, "No, the common complaint is that warriors will be hamstrung by weapons breaking all the time."
Cryheart asks, "I am for breakage, ifn' we get the opportunity for repair. Like Hyoko, I would prefer gradual wear and tear, and how about wands breaking?"
Khazaan says, "So long as we don’t shatter our favorite weapon at once, like had happen to my mattock in the gargoyles, I’m all for it. If the effects are gradual, then we can do something about it, just as Hyoko said."
Titaniia says, "I think the issue is more fear of the unknown, then anything else. When people understand better how things will work exactly, it will quiet. So, you can tell us. Really."
Kuromaku says, "OK. I will. Weapons and armor will break. Somehow, someone will be able to fix them, most of the time. That help?"
Brutii says, "I was just going to note that I read the message boards about this avidly, and, to be honest, those opposed to breakage break down mostly into 2 camps -- those that are truly paranoid, and those that are truely power hunters that consider having to stop to rest and heal too much of a grevious imposition. At least, that’s how it appears to me."
Thrudh says, "I am opposed to a breakage system which has weapons breaking with regularity. I don't want to see warriors buying a new glaes blade every month. I don't want to hear of great weapons like the warchieftain's claidh going poof unless it's an incredibly uncommon situation. No problem with non-catastrophic damage, or with catastrophic damage in unusual situations. You taking one swing with an imflass falchion and having it break was a bit much, IMO. Don't wanna have to buy up all of Tykel's stock for one hunt."
Kuromaku says, "Wouldn't think it would work like that."
Thrudh says, "Neither would I, but you did say that plate was a bit ridiculous."
Pyranth says, "I was just going to ask if there are any new facts regarding the breakage system."
Kuromaku says, "Facts, no."
Hyoko says, "I would not mind warriors taking more damage to their weaponry and armor if warriors tended to be the ones who fix such damage."
Kuromaku says, "They will be. I'll see to that."
Gaq says, "Berr's idea was good. Warriors as masters at arms should be able not only to maintain weapons, but also...."
Kuromaku says, "Uh huh. Don't say it."
Gaq says, "Examine a weapon, rather like a bard, and determine its properties."
Kuromaku says, "I told ya not to say it."
Gaq says, "Sorry."
Kuromaku says, "OK, let's move on. Last topic, and a quick one, 'cause I needs some sleep. People who master Warrior Tricks can make sheaths. Whoopie. Proposed are some ideas for discussion. They are NOT formally proposed.
Disarm - Barehanded Disarming
Berserk - Breaking out of webs, stuns, etc while IN those
Bashing - Nothing new. You already bash on your head.
Warcry - ???
Tricks - Make sheaths."
Tackle - Knock something out of a target's hands while doing it."
(ie:tackle the ball, son.)"
Titaniia asks, " I wonder if uptweaks are still being considered for the skills themselves as well?"
Kuromaku says, "Yes. Not before the RG is released."
Khazaan says, "How about a true warcry, as I mentioned before, heard across the realm, just as someone’s flare can be seen?"
Kuromaku says, "I'm working on war horns. I'd rather that weren't a Guild Skill. I can't justify it, really. But I am looking for a master skill for Warcry, even if it's a new Cry."
Hyoko asks, "Perhaps the group Warcry of a master could increase TD some as well as AS?"
Kuromaku says, "An interesting proposition. WARCRY WALDO'S WAIL?"
Thrudh says, "Would help against fear that way"
Kuromaku wails madly, instilling you with courage!
Kuromaku asks, "Something like that?
Hyoko says, "Uplifting warcry should help against fear."
Khazaan says, "Berr's Rage - affects every critter in the room."
Cryheart says, "Or individual TD."
Kuromaku says, "I ain't makin' no individual Warcry adders."
Gaq asks, "Make Holler and similar last a bit longer than 1 minute?"
Kuromaku says, "Working on it."
Kuromaku asks, "Any other comments?"
Lauranathalasa says, "Kinshack made a few on disarming, like catching the critters blade"
Kuromaku says, "I read 'em. Like I mentioned to him, I like 'em, but they affect the skill that needs the least tweaking."
Geijon says, "As to berserk, perhaps lessen the weakening factor? As of a master and my age I think I get +31 when I berserk. Cryheart and I have been masters fer a long time. We rarely use it because of the drawbacks."
Kuromaku says, "No, I don't want to do that. I'd rather make it so that you can burst out of webs and stuns."
Thrudh asks, "I'd like to see something for Bashing. Seems like there's pitiful little difference between someone with 50 ranks and 63. So it takes me 40 seconds to break a box instead of 30, who cares?"
Kuromaku says, "OK, so gimme a suggestion."
Thrudh says, "I'll work on it. Just didn't want it left out."
Deavon appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Titaniia says, "What about a warcry that is so loud, it causes the very ground to shake, like a quake. Knocks critters over."
Kuromaku says, "No, Tiny. You get no Stomp."
Lauranathalasa says, "Allow us to fight even if in negative hit points till no critters stand while berserking."
Kuromaku says, "Eesh. No chance. I ain't messing with death mechanics. WAY too messy."
Hyoko says, "One of the main reasons I mastered Warcry first, and one of my main complaints with the other skills, is that Warcry is pretty much the only one that helps the party rather than just the individual warrior. As a suggestion for Berserk, perhaps a berserking master could increase the party's effectiveness in some way, by heroic example?"
Kuromaku says, "Mmm, too off-base. More likely a Berserk master MIGHT be able to stay in one room, thus staying joined to a group."
Khazaan says, "Maybe allow us Batter masters to bash any box with less risk of being immolated. Maybe allow us to bash thru some of the traps, since we hit them so hard they just disintegrate."
Kuromaku says, "Nope. I LIKE killing fiters with those."
Brutii says, "I was wondering, spells like Haste don’t work on a warrior while berserk."
Kuromaku says, "And never will."
Brutii says, "I was just wondering if its a bug or something"
Kuromaku says, "Not hardly."
Titaniia says, "Again, the idea of an incredibly loud Warcry. This one would actually stun groups of critters. Make a Warcry master invaluable on rescues from swarms."
Kuromaku says, "A Warcry that stuns the room except the group might be useful."
Geijon says, "Thorsteinn made a comment to me a while back, and I think you reiterated it. ‘Teaching’ defensive and offensive tactics to others. Possible? Sort of like hands-on Warcries."
Kuromaku says, "Mm, I'd rather not."
Gaq asks, "Any chance we can learn off bashing like using a pick, or the "open" spell?"
Kuromaku says, "No. You DO learn off bashing. Just not much."
Thrudh asks, "I'm belled right now. If I grabbed a box I'd get something out of it?"
Kuromaku says, "Please check your XP before starting."
Gaq asks, "Like promotions? Goes straight in?"
Thrudh says, "Ah, so it doesn't add to the pool. Just straight."
Kinshack appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.
Hyoko asks, "Slightly off-the-wall question, if I might, sparked by something in Warrior Guild skills? When I am , and I have killed the creatures in the room I am in, I KNOW where another creature is, if it is in an adjoining room. Why is this skill never utilized in other ways? Such as, 'You sniff the wind and sense another <creature> to the northeast.’ Even for rangers. Why is it not a skill?"
Kuromaku says, "No fair. You just asked the "how come I can't peer east" question like ya did last week."
Hyoko says, "Not the same."
Kuromaku says, "Is so, snert."
Hyoko says, "I wouldn't have asked except I KNOW there is a creature northeast when I'm berserking."
Khazaan says, "Honorable snert."
Kuromaku says, "Thank you, Khaz. Honorable snert. It's a good point, and I don't know. OK, let's wrap up. Next week. Topics: Forging, Ranged Weapons, and Maneuvers."
Titaniia says, "Almost forgot. Any news on Defend?"
Kuromaku says, "Well, yes and no. I need some good suggestions on how to keep folks from abusing it. NOT tonight."
Thrudh asks, "With protecting critters?"
Kuromaku says, "No. A 70th-year old warrior protecting a 10th-year wizard with clouds."
Hyoko says, "As I will be at SimuCon next Saturday, perhaps someone else could log the meeting? I will be happy to edit it upon my return."
Kuromaku says, "Tell ya what. How about we cancel it for next week? Make it the week after. I won't see you there, but y'all have a GREAT time."