This is the log of the sixth Warriors’ Meeting held July 25, 1998 at 3:00 p.m. EST.

[Kuromaku's Dojo]

Diffuse light streams in through the ricepaper shoji screens which enclose this large room. Thick cotton-wrapped tatami mats cover the polished pine floor. Wooden weapon racks are set against the walls filled with assorted weapons, both rattan and metal. You also see the Reife disk, a sliding screen, an elegant freestanding bamboo cage and a low pine table with a chaya of warm sake on it.

Also in the room: Lord Jafirnn (seated), Lord Khazaan (seated), Lord Rova (seated), Lord Kamekaze (seated), Lord Brutii (seated), Lord Geijon (seated), Lord Reife (seated), Lord Ravinold (seated), Lord Graing (seated), Lord Thrudh (seated), Lord Pyranth (seated), Lord Wyseth (seated), Lord Welan (seated), Lady Titaniia (seated), GameMaster Lord Kuromaku

Obvious exits: none.

You see Lord Kuromaku Hikoemon the Giantman Warrior.
He appears to be in his 80's, has short, straight black hair, dark eyes, and black skin.
He is in good shape.
He is wearing an ancient enruned urnon key, a crafter's apron, a jade-inlaid sheath, some dark trousers, a dark shirt, a dark silk satchel, a dark hood, and a blackened mesh belt.

Kuromaku says, "OK, let's get started. Rules are as follows. When I'm speaking, no one else is. When someone is speaking, no one else is. No squirming or otherwise making noise. If you can't abide by these rules, I kick you out, and you aren't invited back. If you have something to say, raise your hand. I'll get to you eventually. Lastly, my poor behavior to the contrary, there will be no griping or harassing or slandering other players. Whining is not permitted. Lastly, Lord Hyoko is kindly continuing to keep track of the logs of these meetings. If you want a copy, and Lord Hyoko is willing, ask him for copies of previous logs, or I will make them available in some other way."

Wyseth says, "They're on a website. http://www.attventure.com/draco/Draco.htm."

Kuromaku says, "OK. Rather than the topics I chose prior to Simucon for this week, I've changed them to: Breakage, Repair, and Proposed Changes to the Combat System. First, what I did in the last 2 weeks. I got approval to make a minor change in the Guild Skills such that players over 80th level can gain reps from creatures 20 years younger than them, rather than 10. May not seem like a big deal, but to the 12 people it affects, it's pretty big. Worked on a secret verb for warriors and got it approved."

Titaniia asks, "Gotta ask. Didja tell Berr yet?"

Kuromaku says, "I did. Why?"

Titaniia says, "Just I think it will do him good."

Kuromaku says, "I had been told for months that there was NO WAY that I would get it approved. They're all wrong, and we're right. There is currently no set date for release of this verb, and there may be tweaks that affect it. Tiny, gimme your weapon."

Titaniia offers Kuromaku a mithril-etched sabre.

Dracoblood appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku accepts Titaniia's mithril-etched sabre.

Kuromaku hefts the sabre a few times, getting a feel for it.

Kuromaku asks, "No weighting, Tiny?"

Kuromaku offers Titaniia a mithril-etched sabre.

Titaniia says, "I wish."

Titaniia accepts Kuromaku's mithril-etched sabre.

Reife offers Kuromaku a fel hafted vultite waraxe.

Kuromaku accepts Reife's vultite waraxe.

Kuromaku hefts the waraxe a few times, getting a feel for it.

Kuromaku says, "Checking out the waraxe, it looks like it's heavily weighted to inflict more critical blows."

Kuromaku offers Reife a fel hafted vultite waraxe.

Reife accepts Kuromaku's vultite waraxe.

Khazaan offers Kuromaku a serrated vultite waraxe.

Kuromaku accepts Khazaan's vultite waraxe.

Kuromaku hefts the waraxe a few times, getting a feel for it.

Kuromaku says, "Checking out the waraxe, it looks like it's decently weighted to inflict more critical blows."

Kuromaku offers Khazaan a serrated vultite waraxe.

Khazaan accepts Kuromaku's vultite waraxe.

Titaniia says, "Ohh, so you can see a difference."

Geijon asks, "This verb would in some ways work as Bard songs do and tell us various properties as to weapons and armor of the type that directly relate to Warriors in general, i.e., OHE users would know their weaponry better and two-handers less, etc.? Or that can't be divulged to us yet?"

Kuromaku says, "This verb will allow the assessment of weighting and padding for weapons and armor. It will not detect anything to do with magic. No flares, no blesses, sanctified, etc. Further, age of the warrior and skill in the appropriate item will count heavily. I'm not going to discuss much else about it. Save that there is currently NO release date for this."

Pyranth says, "Just one last question on that topic. Bards are unable to detect a sanctifing force. Correct?"

Kuromaku says, "I will neither confirm, nor deny that. So I got told that I couldn't do it, so I coded it, and they said that I could. To be fair, Fawn is the one who inspired me to just do it. She was frustrated that warriors who had been using weapons and armor for 70 years couldn't tell whether or not the item was weighted or padded. Further, there's functionality in there for ALL classes. Anyone wearing padded armor?"

Welan offers Kuromaku some brightly burnished plate mail.

Kuromaku accepts Welan's burnished plate mail.

Kuromaku examines some brightly burnished plate mail closely, trying to determine how well it protects.

Kuromaku says, "Examining the mail closely, it looks like it's fairly padded against critical blows. It also looks as if it would be classified as plate armor and covers the torso, arms, legs, and head."

Kuromaku offers Welan some brightly burnished plate mail.

Welan accepts Kuromaku's burnished plate mail.

Kuromaku says, "All classes will receive the second sentence. Only warriors will receive the first."

Reife asks, "I was gonna say, ‘Ask for forgiveness nae permission eh?’"

Kuromaku says, "No. Show them how cool it really is, and get them excited about it."

Reife asks, "How will damage padding show?"

Kuromaku says, "Much the same way."

Wyseth says, "It would be really nice to be able to get the second sentence on armor you are not wearing (at a merchant). Any possiblity?"

Kuromaku says, "I thought about that. The targetting of it makes it VERY difficult. And based on how merchants work, it wouldn't work at all, anyway. Further, I didn't want bards complaining much more than they are going to already."

Brutii asks, "You've answered my question already, but, I was wondering…a small thought really…will there be an RT for the verb?"

Kuromaku says, "Uh huh. And not a short one. You will be receiving far less information than a Bard can for roughly the same amount of time. Make of that what you will."

Khazaan says, "Could there be a way of getting that info from a merchant with the ASK verb, i.e. ASK <gnomish merchant> about <armor/weapon> and get the same kind of info as if you were holding it?"

Kuromaku says, "It would require significant changes in the merchant scripts, and those scripts are MIGHTY complex, so I'm gonna say ‘no’ for now."

Thrudh asks, "Will we be able to determine strengthening/reinforcing?"

Kuromaku says, "No. Strength of a weapon or armor is relative, anyway, and that MAY become an issue for Repair. But I don't know."

Jafirnn asks, "Sorry I missed it, but was the issue of telling about weighting or padding part of the repair system?"

Kuromaku says, "No. New verb."

Jafirnn asks, "Still a ways off?"

Kuromaku says, "No timeframe given. OK, couple that with banning about 5 more warriors from the Guild, and that's what I did in the last 2 weeks."

Khazaan says, "I mentioned it to you, but not anyone else. I was on Teras last week and saw many people ridiculing Rollocks and trying to get him to tackle them or warcry them. It began to be annoying. He handled it very well, but it was still not good to see. I wanted to paste them, but refrained."

Lauranathalasa appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Blaqtar appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku says, "I trust that those people will be suitably chastened when they, too, are expelled from their respective Guilds. At any rate, let's get started with the topics for tonight. Breakage. Whee. My statement first, then y'all can have a good shouting match. I understand the reasons why you DON'T like breakage, but let's discuss why we do. I've watched the prices of weaponry and armor increase exponentially over the last year to numbers that make it nigh on impossible to afford such things, especially for newer players. Further, the amount of weapons and armor that is being sold for real cash has increased in a huge way causing a lot of merchants to say, ‘Hey, forget it. I'm not selling this stuff so that some jerk can sell it for real cash.’ The cause and effect cycle goes something like this: The game is intended to have 5% of all warriors to have claids that are +10 or better. Seeing that the weapons never break, once you have one, you're not likely to give it up, so the same people ALWAYS have the heavier weaponry. I see that there's X weapons out there, so I can't sell any more of that type. The cost to purchase one of those weapons goes WAY up, which rules out any new players from having an item like that. And I mean new as in under a year. The numbers keep going up, but the number of weapons remains constant and in the same hands. If weapons broke, in order to maintain the same level percentage of high-class weaponry, more would have to be sold and at much lower prices. If more weapons are sold, more merchants would likely provide weighting and altering services to replace the weaponry that had gone lost. Now, go right ahead and raise your hands."

Graing grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Welan says, "1 quick comment. Breakage would be alot more palatable to me if, at the same time, some other excesses in the land were dealt with. For example, Heroism. Sold in unlimited quatities at the Spitfire and other merchants."

Kuromaku says, "Not any more. Nor Bravery, nor Phoen Strength, nor items of that type."

Welan asks, "New policy?"

Kuromaku says, "Old policy. New enforcer."

Welan asks, "Well, that’s some improvement. No self-cast only items?"

Kuromaku says, "Nope, with a few minor exceptions. Heal 2, etc."

Thrudh asks, "What of the unique items, such as Berr's claidh, Kali's warblade, and, if I may be so bold, Dogor. We're just gonna see them be tossed away, stuff to talk about, but don't care if they're kept in the lands?"

Kuromaku says, "Tough call. My theory is this: Weapons such as that are ‘legendary.’ A "legendary" weapon might well be unbreakable. Hence, its legend. It is indeed possible that certain rare weapons might be unbreakable, and become legendary along the way, but the existing weapons as they stand will probably not fit that bill right now. I understand the loss, Thrudh. I just can't reconcile your situation with 13,000 other players. I know 10-15 weapons will be dearly missed if lost, and not just by the owner. I am in no position to make amends or excuses. What's good for any must be good for all, and it sucks sometimes. It's something that, ultimately, we will deal with."

Khazaan says, "As I see it, the people with the highest weapon enchants are the ones who don’t even use the weapons. I’m sure the gods know how many high-priced weapons and armor sit in the lockers of mages and sorcs. The existence of those items will skew the availability. Are there plans to get the 8X and 10X weapons out of the hands of casters that use them for defense only, or can’t you comment on that? The ones who hold the weapons will see their value rise constantly."

Kuromaku says, "You can lose a weapon, even if you never swing it. Any questions? I insisted on that. Looks like I made it worse for us, but, in reality, I made it worse for casters."

Khazaan asks, "Not wanting to be an example, can you show us how it works?"

Kuromaku says, "No."

Ravinold says, "Breakage will mean the end of OHE non-hiding fighters. I can’t hunt without a highly ET’d and weighted weapon, and I know I can’t afford to buy new ones."

Kuromaku says, "No, it won't. That's part 3 of this conversation, Ravinold, and why I chose the three topics I did."

Pyranth says, "I want to make sure I have this right before I go off. Are you saying catastrophic breakage is in, and you can't protect a personal treasure in your locker?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not commenting on "catastrophic" breakage, and if you leave an item in your locker, it's perfectly safe. Have fun with it. I think that people who locker weapons with NO intent of using them are being silly, but that's just me."

Pyranth says, "Well then the point of breakage becomes moot. I see that my ultra-morphing 10X waraxe is taking damage. I retire it until it can be repaired. No gain."

Kuromaku says, "I believe that there is always a chance that a weapon may be permanently lost. And having used weapons, many of them, I understand why, completely."

Thrudh says, "There is a chance for catastrophic failure on every swing, per Ophion's talk at Simucon."

Jafirnn grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Titaniia says, "Well, I understand yer reasoning, but, speaking fer myself, I'm not rich."

Kuromaku says, "Nor will you need to be."

Titaniia says, "And I don't dare hunt with a ten-million-coin weapon. It’s like wearing my jewelery in a bad neighborhood at night. So, now I have this sabre--really nice weapon--and it’s gonna sit in my locker, ‘cause no one else is foolish enough to spend coins like that on weaponry considering breakage and its implications. So, it does take weapons out of circulation, but I don't think it does it in the way you intend."

Thrudh says, "If you'll recall, the last time that I saw Ugnarn, he took any non-claidh from 0X to 5X for less than 200K."

The hedgehog looks around worriedly as if it has been abandoned.

Kuromaku says, "And I suspect that that sort of thing will become more likely, Thrudh."

The hedgehog looks around worriedly as if it has been abandoned.

Kuromaku says, "I borrowed Kodos's Hedgehog."

Thrudh says, "And when Breighton was here shortly after that, he was adding 'massive' crits for 350K in 5X or better weapons. 250K for 4X and under. This was all post Ice Age. That's what Kuromaku is trying to say. They want to get back to that kind of pricing."

Gaq appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku says, "Folks, all the things you're commenting on are a function of the fact that there is no breakage. If a weapon will eventually break, who in their right mind would spend 18 million on it? No one. The point is this: If you think you've got the be-all end-all weaponry and armor, you're probably ticked off. On the other hand, the cost to replace said items with a reasonable approximation will be FAR less than what you paid and will be more prevalent."

Titaniia asks, "Why did I pay to have my weapon strengthened? If it doesn't effect its chances of outright breakage..why bother?"

Kuromaku says, "And you paid for it, Tiny, to decrease that chance, like anyone else would."

Pyranth says, "I hear what I'm being told and feel I've been led down the primrose path."

Kuromaku says, "You believed what you wished. No GM in his or her right mind told you that breakage wouldn't return."

Geijon says, "Hmm, hokay. Let’s say a certain Giantman Warrior was to buy a "legendary" blade from his father. Now this blade is truly old, unique. 10X laen broadsword. For 18 million. Would a Master Forger be able to basically sleep with that blade, love it, nurture it and keep it in good shape, then gamble with the 1/1000th breakage on impact?"

Kuromaku says, "Sure. But it still has a chance of breaking. Folks, I've used weaponry. I can't even tell you how many blades I've broken on the STUPIDEST things. I once broke a replica katana, folded a mere 60 times, on a PILLOW. Now, it HAPPENS. Bad snag. Rivet. Dent in the armor. Bone. It's BOUND to happen, and no amount of care is gonna save it. When a blade snaps in half, it's over."

Blaqtar asks, "Seems there's been pushing to take "excess" cash out of the bank accounts. Bringing in breakage and cheaper weapons/armor seems to go against that end. Is this supposed to be linked to that trend somehow, getting inflation under control?"

Kuromaku says, "It impacts it, certainly, but it's not the driving motivator."

Welan says, "My shield is only +20 but it is important to me because of the description and years of service. Any chance that when a weapon suffers catastrophic failure it doesn't just vaporize?"

Kuromaku says, "To be honest, I don't know. I'd kinda like remnants. At least to salvage for smelting or souvenirs. Stuff like that."

Welan asks, "But maybe you get a shard or something that you can take to a reforge and have it reforged if it isn't too powerful?"

Kuromaku says, "It's a good point. I'll bring it up."

Kuromaku points to a broken glaes club mounted on the wall.

Kuromaku asks, "See that, son? Broke that on Gaq's head. Stubborn fool."

Pyranth says, "Ok. I can buy into a weapon going on a bad shot, but, say, a full set of plate? I just can't see the whole thing disintigrating like glass."

(At this point my ISP failed me miserably as ISPs are wont to do. We pick up the story as our hero says)

Kuromaku says, "Perhaps full plate shatters to half plate, and from there to augmented breastplate, and from there to breastplate, and then destroyed, or damaged past the point of being protective."

Kamekaze says, " You said -blade snaps in half- . Can’t be fixed. What about blunt weapons?"

Kuromaku says, "Handle breaks, chain snaps on a flail, flanges break."

Kamekaze says, "Easy to fix."

Kuromaku says, "Mmm, yes and no. Some weapons are."

Kamekaze asks, "And magical properties are not in handles and chains, I suppose?"

Kuromaku says, "Magical properties are in the assembly, not in the pieces."

Hyoko says, "To expand a bit on what Sir Welan brought up. If we have nice customized shields and armor, could we request that the alterers be in the lands more, so we can have our new shields and armor customized the same?"

Kuromaku says, "Sure. Ask away. I'll do my part. Oh, one quick comment about breakage. Contrary to popular belief, it's not finished, nor is Ophion the one who's in charge of it. He's simply coding it, which isn't at all the same thing. Jaxxon, Banthis, and Fawn are responsible for the design and implementation, as you might well imagine."

Gaq says, "Why are do things have to break irrepairably? As we get older, and have slaved to buy our equipment, we become attatched to it. Why must we all walk around in tat, flailing cheapo blades? What is the benefit? Why bother going through endless tedium of mastering forging only to repair an item that will break anyway?"

Kuromaku asks, "Hmmm, in this game, eventually your character will die irrevocably. Why play? I'll take it even further. You know full well that the car you drive will die. Why learn to drive? You know that your computer will crash, why use it? Because if you live in fear of "inevitable" circumstances, you might as well not bother. And again, you have NO idea of the percentages. Oh, comment on the previous comment about Ophion: He has designed a great deal of it, and done some amazing work on it, but he doesn't have the final say. Which is what I was getting at and realized that I may have said it oddly. When your weapon breaks, it breaks. I wouldn't live in fear of it. But I AM living to see the look on a sorcerer's face when he suddenly finds himself short a weapon."

Gaq grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Brutii says, "I was wondering, what with all the intense focus on catastrophic breakage, what about regular breakage? Chances, and such, and can regular breaks be fixed?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not discussing chances."

Brutii asks, "Okies, but, is there regular breakage, and can we fix them?"

Kuromaku says, "And there's also no chance that breakage will come in without repair."

Khazaan asks, "Knowing that a warrior who wields a weapon, holds a shield and wears armor, has those things that might break, are two-handed warriors more apt to have their claidh or armor break?"

Kuromaku says, "No."

Khazaan says, "Hmmm, that doesn’t make sense."

Kuromaku asks, "How do you figure?"

Khazaan says, "Breakage is breakage, right?"

Kuromaku says, "Breakage doesn't work like: Random chance comes up, something hasta break."

Khazaan says, "So, if I’m standing there with my claidh, there’s no more chance that it will break than if I was holding a falchion and a shield?"

Kuromaku says, "No. Not even close. A claidh will break or not based on claid-targetted clashes."

Khazaan says, "What I’m asking is, will the claidh take more of a beating because there’s less things that can get hit? Or armor, for that matter?"

Kuromaku says, "I would think that a claid will be challenged more often, but I also would think that a claid would be commensurately stronger."

Khazaan says, "Take a gargoyle, for instance. He jumps at you, and you put up your shield."

Kuromaku says, "How gargoyles break items has no relationship on breakage."

Khazaan says, "No, no, no. I’m just using it as an example."

Kuromaku says, "Your argument is, if I parry with a shield, as opposed to my claidh..."

Khazaan says, "If you haven’t got a shield, what stops him?"

Kuromaku says, "You're missing my point, Khazaan. Listen. In any given melee you have 10 blows targetting you. If you have a claidh and armor, let's call it 5 blows apiece. If you have an OHE, a shield, and armor, it's 3.33 blows per item."

Khazaan says, "My point exactly. Your armor will get hit more often, no?"

Kuromaku says, "Right. The factor you're missing is relative strength. A claidh is relatively much stronger than a handaxe."

Khazaan says, "So we, as two-handed warriors, have less things that can break so, therefore are more apt to see breakage."

Kuromaku asks, "How the hell do you get that? Khazaan, let's say a claid is 10 times stronger than a handaxe. I have 5 blows aimed at the claid, and 3 at the handaxe..."

Khazaan says, "The claidh is not my main question. It’s more a question about armor. Our armor will be more apt to get hit more, correct? Because we don’t have a shield."

Kuromaku says, "The armor will receive more blows, yes, but I think it's a moot point when you're discussing plate. On average, perhaps 18% more."

Khazaan says, "I don’t wear plate, m'lord."

Kuromaku says, "Fine. Chain. Still moot."

Khazaan grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Welan asks, "Is armor challanged on the hit, or on the parry, or both?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not prepared to discuss that at this time."

Rova says, "I would like to say, is the numbers of vultite or higher morning stars going to be higher? I am a blunt user, and morning stars are about the best in the blunt group. If my 5X morning star breaks, could I just go on the amulet or merchant and buy a new one? Cause so far I haven't seen too many vultite morning stars. Well, I havn't seen many on the amulet or merchants."

Kuromaku says, "The issue of relative quantities of blunt weapons, or polearms/two handers for that matter, should be addressed. I will make an effort, and HAVE made an effort, to insure that when weapons are sold at least SOME weapons of all representative groups are supported, providing it isn't some special merchant, i.e., no point in having halberds if all you're selling is bows. But it's been noted."

Pyranth says, "I just wanted to voice an opinion. The resistance you see, at least on my part, is based from the fact that we don't know what is all entailed."

Kuromaku says, "I'm aware of that. I know it's all fear of the unknown. And, unfortunately, I'm not in a position to enlighten. Personally, I wouldn't have mentioned breakage until one day...snap! Uh-oh. OK, I want to wrap this up. Any more on Breakage?"

Hyoko says, "One comment and one question on the reasoning you used a bit ago with Lord Gaq. I do buy computers, and cars, and such, and no, I don't put them away for fear of breaking. But when I buy them, they come with guarantees."

Kuromaku says, "Lemme guess. Why do I have to die irrevocably?"

Hyoko says, "If they break, I can get them fixed or replaced for nothing within a certain period. If the weapon I pay a lot for breaks on the first swing, I'm going to want to find that merchant. And I'm going to want to demand another weapon or my silver back."

Kuromaku says, "Try getting a guarantee on a baseball bat."

Hyoko says, "There is no guarantee, but I know how to hold a baseball bat so it doesn't break. And a baseball bat doesn't cost relatively what we're talking about."

Kuromaku says, "Certain items break. Very few people will guarantee those items."

Hyoko says, "And aluminum ones don't break."

Kuromaku says, "They do indeed. I've broken aluminum bats. You aren't hitting the right things."

Hyoko says, "Now, you have pegged my question. Why do I have to die irrevocably? You understand what I'm saying."

Kuromaku asks, "And as for irrevocably? You don't. But some day, you might. Forget a deed or 25. Run into a new soul-sucking critter. Who knows?"

Geijon says, "I'll hold my first comment since it wouldn't be constructive. The second is we're jumping ahead and arguing over breakage when we don't know or understand it fully and we havn't heard the flip side of it, repair. So breakage is one piece. We're trying to see the whole puzzle with one piece of it. That’s our fault, not yours, Kuromaku. So, mainly we're just confused. At least, I am."

Kuromaku says, "OK, we're done with this topic, I think."

Blaqtar asks, "When I'm using my claid, it has 0 defensive use when I'm in full offensive. It will still be targeted for the breakage, even though it's not used to defend. Will it only be at risk when I swing, or stance down and use it to defend?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not prepared to discuss that."

Kuromaku says, "OK, Repair. Let's say this: Warriors will be doing repairing. It's their intended role, i.e., it's what we bring to the party. So no one else is gonna steal that. I can't go into details on repair for one excellent reason. It isn't designed fully yet."

Kamekaze asks, "Any profession will be able to repair? It’s going to be skill-based?"

Kuromaku asks, "No, and how can I answer that based on my previous statement? It isn't designed yet, Kame. Who the hell knows what it's based on? Repairing is not patching."

Reife says, "I would like to comment on how much forging skill will affect repair."

Kuromaku says, "Unknown at this time. Still being discussed. I'd like it to play a part, and vice versa."

Reife says, "And, not to step on some people's toes who belong to the Gryphons, but I would like to comment that if it figures heavily it’s hardly fair that they are well ahead of the rest of the lands on forging, simply for the lack of desire or opportunity to join."

Kuromaku says, "Reife, it won't matter. At least, not by the time breakage/repair is released."

Titaniia says, "Just real quick. Your perceptions about that are a bit colored by rumor. The Gryphon's forge hasn't worked since late January. There are maybe two people who can forge worth anything, at all."

Kuromaku says, "It's all a moot point, as any skill in repair as it relates to forging will be unaccounted for in the current implementation of forging. To wit, they can't learn anything that'll help 'em repair right now. Anything else?"

Kuromaku says, "I haven't given it much thought, Kame. I can, but it's a minority skill. OK, let's close this topic, then."

Kamekaze says, "Unfortunately. Kazamon and I posted few ideas. They were ignored."

Kuromaku says, "I read them. They weren't ignored. They were imbalanced."

Hyoko asks, "Perhaps the rest of us could understand what is being discussed, please?"

Kuromaku says, "Sorry for bothering, but I need to leave kind of soon. Just little concerned about two-weapon combat. I know Ophion gave up on trying to improve it, and it’s not your field either. So I guess my question is, any hope for that skill?"

(Note: The above statement was Kuromaku relating what Kamekaze had whispered to him. Kamekaze’s, not Kuromaku’s words.)

Reife says, "I think two-weapon combat is in better shape than one-handed at my age bracket. Just my view."

Kuromaku says, "I think this isn't the time for that discussion. Table it. If you want to make it an issue next week, I will."

Reife says, "I have one thing I think we need to address off topic today, though. More pissed off than whining. Yddrianno bought some polishing cloths last week, and I notice several non-warriors selling lots of em after they sell out in the pavilion. Really irked me. Merchant all you want. I do it to make money, but Yddriano supposedly bought them for warriors."

Kuromaku says, "I can't help warriors buying them and giving them away."

Thrudh says, "Regarding the Guild matter. I saw a sorcerer with a Warrior Guild pin on. Can we have 'em crumble like the house pins? If you aren't a member, they go poof."

Kuromaku says, "OK. I coded a Guild pin that would auto set and all that other good stuff, but Yddriano sold his before I could release mine. OK, let's close this and move on, please. I got asked how I would balance the combat problem that warriors are having WITHOUT adjusting other classes. So I said that I'd ban the warrior class and force everyone to become a rogue. They weren't happy at that, so I told them that it wasn't so easy. I proposed a multiple-prong solution, that I THINK will help. This is NOT accepted, or even formally proposed. It was an opinion, and something that I need to formally propose. First, we start by making aimed attacks from open roughly equal in crit factors to doing it from hiding. Next, we make it progressively harder to hide in higher AsG armors. Across the board. Next, we provide a DF Adder based on an inverse DF Redux formula, per Khazaan's suggestion a few weeks ago. Next, we decrease the amount of CPS in the larger critters. Lastly, we make shields count. That is, an attack that targets a player might be intercepted by a shield EVEN if said attack would hit the player in question. Now, that brings shield breakage into play here in a BIG way, but losing a shield beats losing your head. Further, missile-based maneuver attacks will likely be blockable by shields. If a lava golem chucks a blob at me, why the hell am I catching it on my chest? Any warrior with a modicum of brains will put up his or her shield and block it. That goes for shards, blobs, ice balls, etc., etc., etc. There is also some talk of armor doing the same thing, to a lesser extent. That is, a successful attack hits and is absorbed by armor, rather than the player. It's why you're wearing the stuff in the first place. Having said all that, I think that neatly balances the issues that were raised. So that was my commentary."

Reife says, "Two of the three will affect other classes as well, especially rogues, not to mention all the warriors who are trained now in hiding and ambushing and rangers."

Kuromaku says, "Tough, tough, and tough."

Reife says, "Wait a sec. You said that it had to not adjust other professions? It won't."

Reife says, "Why move every other weapon swinger up and then us up? We still are worse off."

Kuromaku says, "Perhaps you missed an earlier conversation. The one where I said, ‘If you want to hide and ambush, you joined the wrong team.’"

Reife says, "I am not talking about that."

Kuromaku asks, "So what have we changed?"

Reife says, "I am talkin about the open swinging equal to ambush or close enough. Rogues, rangers, clerics will benefit alot from that."

Kuromaku says, "I DIDN'T say that. I said aimed attack from open being more in line with ambushing crit factors."

Reife says, "Aye, I mean aimed. What skill or skills will it be based on?"

Kuromaku asks, "What is it based on now?"

Reife says, "If it’s CM-only you will have some killer Bards and Rangers and Rogues."

Kuromaku says, "C'mon, think a moment here. Arms users."

Reife says, "I know its based on CM."

Kuromaku asks, "So?"

Reife says, "Then we go through retweaks again, and critters get worse."

Kuromaku says, "You aren't paying attention, I think."

Reife asks, "OK, what did I miss?"

Kuromaku says, "You've got folks who are hiding and ambushing. I am doing NOTHING to them. Nothing. They're who you have to catch, since the critters are built to them. The two-handed, claidwielding, hiding ambusher. You have those folks, and I haven't touched 'em. So the trick is to make it so you don't HAVE to hide."

Reife says, "My point is this. If you make it based solely on CM, you will have Bards and Rangers and Rogues still outswinging us from the open."

Kuromaku says, "Mmm, no, and you missed the point again."

Reife says, "I dinnae see how not."

Kuromaku says, "DF Adder. Show me the ranger who has RF Redux. I'll show you a dead ranger."

Reife says, "Who needs a DF adder if you can crit easily from the open?"

Kuromaku asks, "Who said you can crit everything?"

Reife says, "I can kill anything that crits right now that I can hit, and I am not fully trained in ambush."

Kuromaku says, "I would suspect that you will cease being able to do so. And, in any case, your armor will prevent a good portion of that."

Dracoblood says, "You said, ‘Next, we provide a DF Adder based on an inverse DF Redux formula, per Khazaan's suggestion a few weeks ago.’ What exactly is that? DF for weapons?"

Kuromaku says, "OK, without going into how DF Redux works, take my word for it when I say that you are taking a percentage of damage actually done. For example, 37% of all damage dealt by the attacker is dealt to you. So if a critter would do 100 points, you take 37. Get it? My interpretation of Khazaan and Tiny's idea is to invert that. So that, in my example, if you're dealing 100 points, you actually deal 163 points. 63% more."

Dracoblood says, "Ok, and ‘But losing a shield beats losing your head.’ Sadly, that's just not true any more. From a completely OOC sense, I'd rather lose my head than a shield. But then, I'm a two-hander, so it doesn't really bother me."

Kuromaku asks, "OK, now head or shield? By the time breakage has been in for 6 months, that will no longer be the case. It all ties in, Draco."

Kamekaze just disappeared.

Welan says, "Where, if at all, do Ophion’s combat maneuvers factor into all this, i.e., how to make warriors more viable?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not counting on those to make the difference in the viability arena. And if I do, I'm putting all my eggs in a single basket beholden to clerics."

Welan asks, "Do you think they won't happen or won't be very powerful? Or just that you don't want to gamble over something you don't control?"

Kuromaku says, "I think they'll happen, and I think they'll be impactful, but I don't think they're the be-all end-all solution that folks are hoping. The game's too far gone for that."

Ravinold says, "It sounds like the help fer OHE non-hiders is far ways off, and breakage not so far off"

Kuromaku says, "A lot closer than 8 years ago."

Ravinold says, "Is there anyway to speed things up fer us? ‘Cause I know I can’t hunt with store-bought items now."

Kuromaku says, "Sure. Re-roll. Be patient. Hey, it's not like I don't know. I've got a legend warrior who uses a one-hander, too."

Ravinold says, "Well, this would mean Rav would not be viable. It’s hard now as you may know, but I can’t take a step down and make out an existence. Rerolling is not an option."

Kuromaku says, "Ravin, there's no point in rehashing this. 3 weeks ago, you had no hope at all. Now you have a plan. Beats nothing. The problems are well-defined. All I can recommend is to be patient. I'm doing the best that I can."

Ravinold says, "Yeah, easier said."

Kuromaku says, "Yeah? Try it from my side."

Ravinold says, "This is my only character and the only one I wanted to play. If he can hunt, he nay should be in lands. Sorry if all this whine makes ya hungry fer cheese, but after over 3 years workin on him, he's close to seein the end of his era."

Welan says, "Play a 2nd character for a while when things get too frustrating. It's what I do."

Titaniia says, "At least now there's people actually working on it AND telling us what they are doing."

Thrudh says, "If these changes are implemented, why would anyone train in hiding? As a rogue/OH warrior, I can get the same benefit *and* get the benefits of heavy armor by going the CM + Ambush route, plus a better AS, DF Redux, and DF adder. And likely better maneuvers. I'm not looking forward to changes that just shift the mantle that we're wearing over to rogues."

Kuromaku says, "Ahhh. You saw that, did you? o be honest, that's an added benefit. Rogues are meant to be arms users, not casters. Now the arms path is more defined and viable. It doesn't shift the mantle. It makes a previously unviable path not only viable, but desirable."

Geijon says, "Two quick questions. Reife says, ‘My point is this. If you make it based solely on CM, you will have Bards and Rangers and Rogues still outswinging us from the open.’ Warriors have the easiest time training in CM. Rogues, Bard, Rangers have to make sacrifices. It’s like Mana Share for us to all of them. So if it was CM-based we'd benefit more."

Kuromaku says, "Plus the forced choice of DF Redux or not. They have to choose a path."

Wyseth just disappeared.

Geijon says, "Second question was with the DF redux reversal. Now Gaq and Berr. A witch hit Gaq with a 720AS to his 90DS. 30 Damage. Gaq and Berr with the opposite. Nas-T. Gaq does have 9X/9X padded armor tho."

Thrudh says, "The enchants are largely irrelevant"

Kuromaku says, "The padding certainly is not."

Geijon says, "His padding is amazing, aye? The question is the DF added would be like crit damage or impact damage? "

Kuromaku says, "Boy, you guys are too smart for me. I'm just gonna quit now. How about I just say that it'll work JUST like DF Redux works, in reverse."

Lauranathalasa says, "So this DF adder would work independently from aimed attacks if someone chose to go toe-to-toe with a critter instead of just lopping its head and would be more effective on critters that don’t crit? As Geijon said, I think."

Kuromaku says, "That's my eventual goal, Laurana."

Reife asks, "Which armor types do you plan on implementing the changes for hiding?"

Kuromaku says, "All of them. It will likely work as a penalty/bonus system, based on AsG."

Reife says, "Well, let me come right out and ask. Should I keep training in hiding?"

Kuromaku says, "I have no idea. Based on my suggestions, I wouldn't. But I have no idea whether or not I'll get what I'm asking for. Or when."

Reife says, "Well, the realism thing of the whole system is shot."

Brutii asks, "Any idea on when shield bash will replace Guild power spitting?"

Kuromaku says, "No. And Reife, again, you're just trying to be argumentative. Actually, all the suggestions increase the realism. As I said, and you've probably missed it, I have a lot of training in armed combat. Swords, knives, and other weaponry."

Geijon says, "As to an unarmed combat question. Fu and open-hand brawling aren't very feasible. Fu is obsolete after about miners. Brawling has no practical use in open combat. Kai can't be emulated by some naked warrior with bare fists."

Blaqtar says, "Works in soul golems"

Geijon says, "Have to try that. I.e., my martial artist’s background."

Kuromaku asks, "Your point, Geijon?"

Geijon says, "Anything planned to lower undead MB defense so we can use Fu and perhaps use brawling more effectively?"

Kuromaku says, "I have just one thing to say to that. Try using a tiger-claw against a seeker. One shot. Blam."

Geijon says, "Seekers are like hitting wet tissue paper."

Pyranth says, "I tried your tiger claw thing on mares. Useless."

Kuromaku says, "Mares are wearing armor."

Dracoblood says, "I did that spin attack on wind wraiths. Didn’t work."

Welan says, "Brawling is what saves your butt when you lose your weapon."

Kuromaku says, "Ahhh, he caught that part of breakage, too. I'm also making a mess more brawling weapons, since I really like it. Spiked gauntlets. Brass knuckles. Mesh weighted gloves. Broken bottles. Lengths of chain. Annnnd, I'm trying to make ANYTHING a weapon. Gold boxes. Table legs. Bricks. "

Yarx removes a fuzzy amber toy cow from inside his mummy shroud cloak.

Yarx put a fuzzy amber toy cow inside his mummy shroud cloak.

Kuromaku says, "And fuzzy amber toy cows."

Pyranth asks, "You able to borrow code from HX?"

Kuromaku says, "I CAN, Pyranth, but I'm NOT getting into their combat system. I looked at it closely. The two systems are not particularly reconcilable, although the ideas are."

Geijon asks, "Perhaps with manuevers some could be wrestling-based? Trip, elbow, etc. Arm lock."

Kuromaku says, "An unarmed combat system has been proposed. Wrestling, brawling, and martial arts, all."

Welan says, "Not a big point with me, but any ideas on making things like rapiers and daggers a little more useful again?"

Kuromaku says, "That's a tough one, Welan. Not my department, really. Based on how things are working out, I'd doubt it, but you never can tell."

Welan says, "Aye. Just thought I'd mention it. Were a few people that were fond of ‘em in the Ice Age."

Kuromaku says, "OK. Let's wrap up."

Geijon says, "Quick suggestions. They could either be verbs or tricks for later. I've noticed the shield when you play with the light, etc. Flash it and all that. Perhaps whipping off your hand and gripping then switching from hand to hand. Circling. Eye movement. Lunges."

(Geijon circles Kuromaku, eyeing him suspiciously, looking for an opening.)

Geijon says, "That type."

Kuromaku says, "Write me a letter. OK, does anyone have any strong opposition, or weak opposition for that matter, to my suggestions for combat balance?"

Thrudh says, "I'm still trying to figure out what it's gonna do to rogues before I get too worked up over it."

Kuromaku says, "Force them to cast or not. None of this halfway stuff."

Thrudh says, "There are many middle path rogues in the lands right now. Most rogues are middle path, I'd think."

Kuromaku says, "And they made their bed."

Welan says, "I don't think we're the ones you have to worry about opposition from, Kuromaku."

Titaniia says, "Thrudh, I'm not understanding how it hurts rogues."

Thrudh says, "Reducing the benefits of hiding, reducing the ability of armor and hiding, etc. While good concepts, that is what keeps rogues alive."

Titaniia says, "I don't know many rogues wearing more then brig."

Thrudh says, "There are many."

Titaniia says, "And I don't think it reduces ambush from hiding, merely adds to open ambush. Thrudh, the point is, if a rogue can ambush from hiding and get all the benefits of plate, why shouldn't we get the same from the open? That's "our" area as much as hidden ambush is theirs. I dunno. I just hate to see other classes excel at every aspect of combat."

Thrudh says, "Not solely. Theirs is the sneak attack, and it should be more effective than open aiming."

Geijon says, "Gaq mentioned to me the new area on the volcano is only hidable in 1/5th of the rooms."

Kuromaku says, "It will be, but not decisively so."

Rova just left.

Geijon says, "There is possibly going to be more of that? So rogues don't get any advantage? Rangers camo works tho. Any reasoning behind that, Kuromaku, and is that the first step vs. the in-a-field, nowhere-to-hide reasoning?"

Kuromaku says, "I think it's a step towards trying to balance combat for warriors by not allowing ambushers."

Lauranathalasa says, "I have a question about warding Warcries."